Great place you have here. I am very amateur at building websites. My point to the discussion would be, sometimes you just can't afford a pro. I was asked by a volunteer organization to make a site for them. We had a pro volunteer doing it, but he was always to busy to update it. When he was told that someone else was going to have to do it he refused to give us the rights to his work (another story!). It only needed to be basic, and I was told to just copy the pro made banner from the national webpage and add our local association name to it. It ended up being functional and looking good (but not excellent like the pros). I think in the end it comes down to what it will be used for. In our case it is so members can quickly print off needed forms and to catch up the latest news. I'd be surprized to learn that more than 100 people come a month. Why would we pay big bucks for such a low travelled site?
I've seen job postings for web designers at $13/hour. That's where we've gotten with all this price gouging. Now there are people who expect to get decent work done for pennies
Sierra Nomad wrote: I read a post sometime back requesting the services of a web designer. When asked he said he was willing to pay $10. for his site's creation.
More of an amateur client there I think There are a lot of them about as well.
I dont know, i know how to program in HTML, C++, pascal, basic and a bit of java, PHP and the rest of the basic stuff. I certinly would call myself a amature, though i think there is a huge difference in a amature making his first site for himself and the same guy selling that service. I wouldn't feel comfortable selling my services to someone else. I do think with frontpage and other WYSIWYG editors the webdesign industry went down the crapper. Now a 14 yearold can make a website, that does look good, however it wont preform good. I know enough to optimize my websites a bit. But for a quality design you would expect it to have a fast load time, easily updateable and effective layout. I've seen enough to know that a nav bar, with some content in the middle isn't always a effective layout...specially when they like to put lots of bulky images that don't need to be there. On that same note, i don't blaim people for using frontpage. It's a pain in the *** coding it in a text editor all the time. Personally i use my editors, and then go through and chop the **** i dont need. The one i'm using has quite a few options to keep the code simple. But thats just me.
What annoys me more is programmers who fancy themselves as designers, but that is a whole different topic!
There are plenty of unqualified amateurs around, sometimes it annoys me but ulitmately they make me look even better so i don't mind The world is full of immoral, unethical people but if you're truly good enough then it shouldn't matter.
-Rob
JeevesBond posted this at 16:25 — 20th August 2005.
Megan wrote:
I'd be more comfotable working in a team with complementary skill sets.
I can empathise with that, someone can't know everything. That's also a good part of this forum, we can all make-up for each others knowledge gaps.
I'd say that having professionalism in one's business dealings is often more important than actual knowledge. A good manager doesn't need to know everything about a particular subject if they have a good team of specialists backing them up.
JeevesBond wrote: I can empathise with that, someone can't know everything. That's also a good part of this forum, we can all make-up for each others knowledge gaps.
I'd say that having professionalism in one's business dealings is often more important than actual knowledge. A good manager doesn't need to know everything about a particular subject if they have a good team of specialists backing them up.
I cant say much more about this, than saying "having this forum is cultivating all of us to become professionals, the way each other compliments each others weakness or strength is a task only a group of people helping each other out can do"...
demonhale posted this at 15:54 — 20th August 2005.
Then we come to the definition of professionalism, the skill, competence, or character expected of a member of a highly trained profession, the following of an activity for financial gain rather than as an amateur... As a professional, engaged in an occupation as a paid job rather than as a hobby, showing a high degree of skill or competence & habitually, and usually annoyingly, indulging in a particular activity...
I also agree, I see myself as an amature (i don't use free javascripts and millions of jigsaw images though) but I can't see myself trying to create a decent, professional looking site until I get a LOT more experience...
Interesting parallels though! I guess it's the same in most businesses, and there're always plenty of incompetent people around to ruin it for everyone else. The company I work for as a "day-job" is a huge multi-national (I'll name no names) yet our approach to software design/development can be very amateurish with terrible results. I guess the problems we discuss here can manifest themselves for every company, no matter what level it's at.
IMO the crux of this argument is that learning is fine, however trying to manifest yourself in other peoples perceptions as having a higher knowledge-level than you actually do is definately not fine. Then undercutting professionals who really understand what they're doing and also do this as a full-time job is even worse.
Megan wrote:
these aren't really commercial quality products at all so it's not comparable to walmart or even the dollar store.
Agreed, these products definately fall into the category of what I call a: "Non-entity"
If this is an amateur site then fine. There's nothing wrong with someone learning and messing around with different tools in their own area, especially if they can't afford a designer and they're just doing a one-off site for a specific purpose. But if this was written by a so-called "Web designer" then we have a problem
If this is an amateur site then fine. There's nothing wrong with someone learning and messing around with different tools in their own area, especially if they can't afford a designer and they're just doing a one-off site for a specific purpose. But if this was written by a so-called "Web designer" then we have a problem
The sad truth is, that is the OFFICIAL site for the city I live in. I'm honestly embarrasssed about it. Almost as much as the one we have here at work (bad BAD marketing of ours...)
I gave that site as a perfect example of someone who played around with a toy (front page), and got their boss to pay them to do it instead. We used to have a pro company in the area maintain it. But they cut costs, and in turn cut their audience...
(Yes I have written to them, even created sample pages cleaned up online, log files showed they were visited, but they never wrote back. I'm ready to contact the mayor herself, but so far no responce to e-mail to her, and the city's advertiesed e-mail on the home page came back "mailbox doesn't exist". The last mayor, it was her assistant that maintained the site, so if it is the same assistant, and she screens the mayor's e-mail, would explain no reply LOL).
Just for the record, I consider myself a web programmer, as I can program the backend side of a site, The design, layout, colors, marketing, SEO, etc, I suck at, someone else here does that. As far as a web prgrammer goes, I am a professional, web designer, amatuer. Webmaster, who knows LOL
Greg K wrote:
Just for the record, I consider myself a web programmer, as I can program the backend side of a site, The design, layout, colors, marketing, SEO, etc, I suck at, someone else here does that. As far as a web prgrammer goes, I am a professional, web designer, amatuer. Webmaster, who knows LOL
-Greg
That's pretty much where I'm at too. I'd be more comfotable working in a team with complementary skill sets.
I think we should also remember that "professionalism" is also an attitude or behaviour. It means being able to conduct onself properly in business situations and handle problems that come up. That part takes maturity and experience and in that way I'd say I'm a professional.
JeevesBond wrote: IMO the crux of this argument is that learning is fine, however trying to manifest yourself in other peoples perceptions as having a higher knowledge-level than you actually do is definately not fine. Then undercutting professionals who really understand what they're doing and also do this as a full-time job is even worse.
Not to mention ripping off the customers!
When did that poll get there? I didn't notice it before. Anyway, I don't quite feel comfortable referring to myself as a "professional" when it comes to overall web design (in the context of this conversation). There's just too much on the business side that I don't know much about. If I wanted to start a business I'd have to do a lot of learning about SEO, marketing, things like that.
There are always going to be those who think they can do it in the market. I'm also on a forum for limo companies, See the same argument there. The pro's and those who jsut rent a car. Funny how complaints are about the same
Quote: 90% of the people who are on the internet dont notice the diffrence between quality (professional) work and cheep amature work.
again, same complaint in both worlds. There will always be the people who will shop for price, and as long as they can't tell whats wrong, will think they saved a buck and all is well.
As with the limo world, and what the pros there point out. Never lower your standards or prices, instead raise you level of education to the customers of what they will get over the competition.
I've done a few sites before. I don't charge much. I'm not trying to undercut someone who does it for a living. *I* know what is possible out there, and knowing that do not feel comfortable charging someone the same price as a "pro" (yes, I do explain it to the people). I suck at layout and such, I much prefer backend programming
The one thing that does bother me though, seeing someone who offers cheap service, and find out, they are using illegal copies of Dreamweaver, Photoshop, etc. Seen them argue "well I bought it OEM" or "I got educational pricing". It is still against the license agreement. I'll admit, I used to do that. I hope others can come to the point where they can realize it and be able to purchase the full copies like I did. Hey if you are making $$ using the software PAY FOR IT, allocate income towards it, it's well worth it.
I'm proud that for the first time in a LONG time, my laptop is full of 100% fully legal software
Funny how this is another issue similar to limo forums compliants, there they have those who skirt permit laws and insurance laws so they can undercut the legit companies. Same as here, the customer doesn't notice until something comes up that causes them to look closer.
All in all, there is always going to be competition of different levels of ability. I do agree, there are too many people who think they can make it look pretty. (see http://www.stow.oh.us especially in firefox...) And jsut remember, no matter how good you may be, there will probably always be at least one person who conciders you not a pro to "their" standards. Just a difference in people. It's life.
My suggestion, when you see a "slop site" (my personal term for it), why not drop a friendly e-mail offering if nothing else a link to a site with tutorials on what you see wrong. Help the "newbies"
I'm going to hop off the soap box now and go watch tonight's episode of Big Brother. Glad to be able to have the place to rant once and a while
-Greg
demonhale posted this at 01:24 — 19th August 2005.
Hey bjaa I told you yesterday I thought it was on flash, and noticed it was all GIFs with javascripts... Still even with that little jagged graphics, you have proved two points... You can do certain things better than amateurs, You can have the same effect you want without using flash!
Seems we all agree about certain topics here, but what really is the issue here?
What really is the big deal? We deal with experience, Talent, Skills and training...
What else? Ive had gripes like these... I just keep doin what Im doin, and maybe time will come that people will recognize my work...
I compleatly agree on everything you say Megan. I know the level of work that goes into each and every site I do. I spend more time modifying the page than creating the page. But what really bothers me, what the real proublem is... 90% of the people who are on the internet dont notice the diffrence between quality (professional) work and cheep amature work.
Case and point Bja888.com.
This site doesnt get anywhere near the credit it deserves. It needs a update when it comes to the visuals but that site is so cool. Everyone thinks its flash. It works in...
- FireFox (and netscape)
- IE
- Windows
- Macs
- Linux
It looks the same in all of those. Speeds might differ slightly but its quality work. Especally knowing that I had only been doing web design for 2.5 years when that site came out.
And that's cool! Nothing wrong with doing this as a hobby or for your own business. That's the way to learn!
I was just coming back to add to my last point - these aren't really commercial quality products at all so it's not comaprable to walmart or even the dollar store. I'm sure you all can think of hobbies you've had or your family or friends have had. A good hobbiest is not the same as a professional! It takes a lot of work, training, and experience to get to the next level. In web design people just keep getting this idea that hobbiest level quality is good enough to sell.
I am not a pro web designer but I have taught myself enough to design a website. That is it. My website is not brilliant but it does me with the budget I have. If I had more money I would get a pro to design my site but I currently do not. I said my site was not brilliant and to be honest it is quite the opposite. I know when I see a well designed website by a pro web designer and I know it is a million times better than mine.
It's not really like an advertisement or a newspaper. Websites are a lot more functional and interactive. It's so much more than a communications tool or an advertismeent (and it is like an advertisement its a great way for businesses to let their customers know more about them). In most cases you are communicating comething interactively and/or attempting to get people to *do something* (buy the product, sign up for the service etc.). Knowing what the goal is is important for all sites but especially business sites. A professional web designer should be able to determine what that goal is and develop a site that can accomplish it.
And not just usability - branding/marketing, attention to detail, quality development methods, knowledge of technologies and ability to choose appropriately, knowledge of design principles, ability to create something that looks good and works, ability to network, get clients, and treat them professionally etc. etc.
It is scary how many designers don't even have a baisc grasp of any of this. Many seem to think that visually flashy or impressive is enough. I was at the Pepsi site the other day (trying to find out when Pepsi One will be available in Canada) and it has got to be the most unusable site I have ever seen. "Professional web designer"? Ha!
And sure, there's room for different quality levels like there is in other markets but what so many don't realize is that what they're providing is too low quality. In other markets it wouldn't be possible to sell such garbage but since the masses don't seem to know what good web deisgn is they get away with it. If you were comparing it to a hair stylist or accountant or building contractor or something - even the bad ones have some basic level of qualifications. And the bad ones certainly won't last too long in business!
ETA: It's not Walmart quality, it's dollar store quality. And there are certain things that should not be available at the dollar store
The internet is an interesting media...
Your common user recognizes it is print media. (Like an advertisement)
Yet it is a communications tool. (Like a newspaper)
The thing that gets you recognition is a program suite that is geared towards 5 year olds. (Flash)
So I guess the thing the separates the professionals and the armatures is usability. For as much as everyone complains about it you would think it would be more important to the masses.
You're right, it's not just about being young. That's not the point. There are "older" people who are trying to do this too. The point is that way too many people pass themselves off as web designers without having anything close to the proper skills, talent, and experience.
I don't think age is really a factor, I redid a site that had been done by a 'professional', I believe he was in his 50's. He must be colour blind or something as the orgainal site had a blue background with blue (a diferent shade of blue) text, plus blue links and half the pages weren't linked ...
hey I get a few jobs a month and its basicly because I have a personal and professional approach with people. I need the money and I charge less than anyone in my are just to get the job. So I guess you could say I am the Walmart of web design in michigan.
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 02:07 — 18th August 2005.
wwwben wrote: So I guess you could say I am the Walmart of web design in michigan.
Funny. Wal-mart doesnt offer quality though. In fact, I'm starting to think manufactures make a few diffrent version of the same product then ship and price based on quality. exaple...
I have 2 LG Flattron L1720P flat panel monitors. One I bought at best buy when this model was first sold retail for $380. Then my 2nd monitor at that time died. So I went and found the same model that I bought at best buy online for $210. To make a long story short. One I am looking at right now with a CRT next to it. The other is in the top of my closit waiting its fate. I am going to have to go back to best buy when I get enough money.
Same idea can be applyed to web design. The client should pay for only what they need. Nothing else, nothing more.
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 19:08 — 19th August 2005.
ShadeX your argument is clear and right on but the proublem lies with the client. The presedent would rather have the work of a 13 year old rather than a professional becuase it looks better. Its futial to try and explain that a profesionals work is over all better for the company.
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 16:12 — 22nd August 2005.
I really don’t like designing but I am forced to do it. I cannot find anyone who wants to work with me ever. So I am really tiring to work on it . That would be why I have a website the highlights quality not design (I'm talking about optimal source)
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 03:51 — 20th August 2005.
Quote: Is more, are you good and are you takeing jobs away from those who are better?
Should only the best get jobs? There are a lot of landscapers out there, and some are better than others, why should the best one get all the business? That doesn't make sense. What's wrong with taking away jobs from other people if your doing good enough to get clients?
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 01:23 — 18th August 2005.
bja888 wrote: The arguement isnt if someone is or is not a webmaster. Is more, are you good and are you takeing jobs away from those who are better?
if people are taking jobs away from you then you must not be better for the customer. if you have a web design company you cant just rely on design, like any business you have to make the whole package the most attractive to the customer. if your site looks that much better than the customer will be justified in spending the more money, if it isnt then I wouldnt throw my money away either
this can be said in any profession. "is it fair that a mechanic that rips people off by doing a poor job quickly get more clients than another mechanic that is honest and prides himself on quality?"
in many professions what the client wants and what the person providing the service recommends is totally different. if the customer is happy then the webdesigner did a good job. it doesnt matter what you think, what customer thinks is #1
ok here is my thoughts (as if anyone cares)
a good web site is decided by the customers happiness. If a young person can deliver a functional website that the customer likes..then mission accomplished. Anyone elses opinion is just that..an opinion.
Don't you think some younger people are better designers than some of the older ones? I really don't think age has anything to do with design capabilities. It's a matter of interacting with client and how the designer treats the client. I have a couple of friends who can design a lot better than companies around here. But they just don’t communicate very well.
chrishirst posted this at 06:34 — 17th August 2005.
Oh you think this field is tough, try desktop publishing. It may just be me, but I can spot an inkjet printed publication (or worse, "business card") a mile away, and to me, it says "unprofessional".
I deal with people that stop and think, hmm, he wants $.20 a page for a color flyer, at 250 copies, that's $50... Then they see their inkjet printer sitting there, and decide they can save money by printing them themselves. Then a week after that, complaining at the costs of ink when it runs out during soemthing else....
-Greg
teammatt3 posted this at 03:08 — 17th August 2005.
Quote: 16 year-old kids working out of their bedrooms.
Yup, that's me. But my situation is a little different. Local web development companies (real ones) outsource to me, so I never meet with customers. When my aunt wanted me to do her website I told her to go through a real company, not me. It's not fair for a real company to compete with dorky 16 year old kids. I have no problems with 16 year old kids applying for jobs at web design companies, as I did. They shouldn't design on their own, though.
There is a lot more to web designing than just knowing (x)HTML or how to use an editor.
Webdesigning (if solo) is a whole package, you design the code to the layout (or vis-versa), hopefully validate it making it more browser compatible, then even hopefully adapt some 504 or section8 elements into the layout. Images, banners or logos need to be made or sourced. The site then has to be uploaded and submitted to search engines, updates and links have to be maintained ...
In a company sense a webdesigner usually just does one part (the code) but is part of a team, singular this person is nothing, the team is everything.
Think of the team as a hand - the webdesigner may be the thumb, but without the fingers it's useless, being solo you need to be the whole hand.
To create a site in frontpage and upload it to the net, anyone can do it (and they do), maintaining a name on the net is another ball game all together. I've actually seen one or two really good designs made with frontpage, the site fell over on some browsers but was only because their knowledge was limited, and the person was stuborn with the "it looks great to me so should to everyone else" attitude.
I think more people need to remember the golden rule of webdesign - we design for other people. Our own likes, dislikes, favorites should not come into it, design for the topic whether it be a business site, a personal site or something else.
Structure is king, design a solid foundation (code base), then comes content and everything else are extras (unless it's a graphic based topic).
I am not a webdesigner, sure I have created all my sites, code, images etc but I suck at creating images, my SEO knowledge is only limited yet I can create and maintain an e-commerce site easily. I am somewhere between an amature and professional. If I had to title myself it would be developer or something
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 04:05 — 17th August 2005.
I also remember spidermans motto "with great power comes great responsibility"...
If I chose too im better in hacking than in designing, maybe Ill hack their site... LOL!
demonhale posted this at 18:12 — 16th August 2005.
Yeah that ticks me off too! Especially when even forum members tend to classify you amature just because youre no good in certain aspects of design and instead of helping just crack it all up, its not like im asking for codes, aligning (as mentioned) and the stuff when all you really need are diffusion of ideas to make certain things LOOK better...
Maybe youve read before I also teach basic html, when I say basic I mean b-a-s-i-c...
See I also have this student once with onle a semester from me, her mom has this good business here of clubs, resorts, hotels and she decided to make a site for her... She didnt told me at first, it seems shes quite interested learning that shes always asking for additional notes, thats not against my better judgement but she knows this and then post up this site with all the pictures and bells and blah... And then name it coded by me??? Then she was kind enough to tick me off again by posting a link for my old site... Then one day her mom asked who did their site and it was crappy, she pointed at me, then her mom asked me if she paid anything or what... I said no, then explained what had happened (who would she believe anyways?)... She birate me and all and took it up against the school for me doing business inside the campus... Which I dont... It was all up in the air, so lucky enough I got a few sites on the works for local business of a few of my students and was able to show her what I can really do professionally, So again I setup a confrontation and drop all these infront of her as well ...
Im not so shitty that I'll post a client site that doesnt even quilify to my standards...
Im a little fish in the sea, but Im no shark...
but little things sting too ya know?
I agree. It seems that people still haven't realized that good Web Design takes experience, talent, and a lot of knowledge. Unfortunately the clients don't know the difference between good and bad and end up with a lot of poor quality products. So many people offering sites at "bargain basement prices!" People haven't yet realized that when it comes to web design "bargain basement" means "garbage." Shameful, the kind of stuff that passes for professional web design! I was browsing through some local directories recently and was appalled at what was available in my area.
I don't think the practice of having admin assitants doing website updates is such a huge problem. If the site is properly designed by a real professional and the assistant is properly trained it shouldn't be a huge problem. Fits well with the normal responsibilities for those sorts of jobs.
I DO have a problem with inexperienced beginners passing themselves off as professional web designers. I've said this before: there's a reason why web designers have a reputation for being 16 year-old kids working out of their bedrooms. It gives us all a bad name and I don't see it letting up anytime soon. I don't even like to tell people that I'm a web designer (unskillled creator of cheap junk) - I'll use "developer" instead or some variation of my actual job title (online course developer).
We see it over and over again here - someone discovers web design, comes here and reads about people doing this for a living. Right away they think they can do it too. The sad thing is that they actually get clients! Web design has gotten a reptuation for being easy, which isn't not, and that leads business owners to believe that they can get a good site for very little money.
ETA: The more serious problem with this is that the unskilled beginners are undercutting the market to the point where the skilled designer can't compete. If I wanted to go out on my own I'd have a hard time making the kind of money I can get doing something else.
I also think that even reasonably capable designers are missing the point of design in a lot of cases. You see peopole focusing on visual design, navigation, technologies, and functionality. Nobody talks about what the site is really supposed to be doing - making the client's business better. Unfrotunately people still tend to see websites as eye candy - like a status symbol almost rather than a business tool. I think this is why small business web design has been such a failure. I'm seeing a lot of jobs for marketing people with web design experience so it looks like this could be a new trend. This is what really separates the best from the rest in this field.
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Mikel108 posted this at 06:11 — 27th September 2005.
They have: 1 posts
Joined: Sep 2005
Thanks for the help Greg, but the logo and leaders image are owned by the National party.
Best,
Mikel
Mikel108 posted this at 03:55 — 26th September 2005.
They have: 1 posts
Joined: Sep 2005
Hi all,
Great place you have here. I am very amateur at building websites. My point to the discussion would be, sometimes you just can't afford a pro. I was asked by a volunteer organization to make a site for them. We had a pro volunteer doing it, but he was always to busy to update it. When he was told that someone else was going to have to do it he refused to give us the rights to his work (another story!). It only needed to be basic, and I was told to just copy the pro made banner from the national webpage and add our local association name to it. It ended up being functional and looking good (but not excellent like the pros). I think in the end it comes down to what it will be used for. In our case it is so members can quickly print off needed forms and to catch up the latest news. I'd be surprized to learn that more than 100 people come a month. Why would we pay big bucks for such a low travelled site?
Best Regards,
Mikel108
Megan posted this at 14:08 — 17th September 2005.
She has: 11,421 posts
Joined: Jun 1999
I've seen job postings for web designers at $13/hour. That's where we've gotten with all this price gouging. Now there are people who expect to get decent work done for pennies
Megan
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Sierra Nomad posted this at 06:34 — 17th September 2005.
He has: 50 posts
Joined: Feb 2005
I read a post sometime back requesting the services of a web designer. When asked he said he was willing to pay $10. for his site's creation.
chrishirst posted this at 09:35 — 17th September 2005.
He has: 379 posts
Joined: Apr 2005
More of an amateur client there I think
There are a lot of them about as well.
Chris
Indifference will be the downfall of mankind, but who cares?
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ShadeX posted this at 13:40 — 16th September 2005.
They have: 4 posts
Joined: Sep 2005
I dont know, i know how to program in HTML, C++, pascal, basic and a bit of java, PHP and the rest of the basic stuff. I certinly would call myself a amature, though i think there is a huge difference in a amature making his first site for himself and the same guy selling that service. I wouldn't feel comfortable selling my services to someone else. I do think with frontpage and other WYSIWYG editors the webdesign industry went down the crapper. Now a 14 yearold can make a website, that does look good, however it wont preform good. I know enough to optimize my websites a bit. But for a quality design you would expect it to have a fast load time, easily updateable and effective layout. I've seen enough to know that a nav bar, with some content in the middle isn't always a effective layout...specially when they like to put lots of bulky images that don't need to be there. On that same note, i don't blaim people for using frontpage. It's a pain in the *** coding it in a text editor all the time. Personally i use my editors, and then go through and chop the **** i dont need. The one i'm using has quite a few options to keep the code simple. But thats just me.
robfenn posted this at 12:29 — 22nd August 2005.
He has: 471 posts
Joined: Jun 2005
What annoys me more is programmers who fancy themselves as designers, but that is a whole different topic!
There are plenty of unqualified amateurs around, sometimes it annoys me but ulitmately they make me look even better so i don't mind
The world is full of immoral, unethical people but if you're truly good enough then it shouldn't matter.
-Rob
JeevesBond posted this at 16:25 — 20th August 2005.
He has: 3,956 posts
Joined: Jun 2002
I can empathise with that, someone can't know everything. That's also a good part of this forum, we can all make-up for each others knowledge gaps.
I'd say that having professionalism in one's business dealings is often more important than actual knowledge. A good manager doesn't need to know everything about a particular subject if they have a good team of specialists backing them up.
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demonhale posted this at 16:33 — 20th August 2005.
He has: 3,278 posts
Joined: May 2005
I cant say much more about this, than saying "having this forum is cultivating all of us to become professionals, the way each other compliments each others weakness or strength is a task only a group of people helping each other out can do"...
demonhale posted this at 15:54 — 20th August 2005.
He has: 3,278 posts
Joined: May 2005
Then we come to the definition of professionalism, the skill, competence, or character expected of a member of a highly trained profession, the following of an activity for financial gain rather than as an amateur... As a professional, engaged in an occupation as a paid job rather than as a hobby, showing a high degree of skill or competence & habitually, and usually annoyingly, indulging in a particular activity...
SirDave posted this at 13:48 — 20th August 2005.
He has: 2 posts
Joined: Jul 2005
I also agree, I see myself as an amature (i don't use free javascripts and millions of jigsaw images though) but I can't see myself trying to create a decent, professional looking site until I get a LOT more experience...
For now I think I'll just keep practicing.
-SirDave.
Chiser
JeevesBond posted this at 12:17 — 19th August 2005.
He has: 3,956 posts
Joined: Jun 2002
Ack, Big Brother - ghastly program!
Interesting parallels though! I guess it's the same in most businesses, and there're always plenty of incompetent people around to ruin it for everyone else. The company I work for as a "day-job" is a huge multi-national (I'll name no names) yet our approach to software design/development can be very amateurish with terrible results. I guess the problems we discuss here can manifest themselves for every company, no matter what level it's at.
IMO the crux of this argument is that learning is fine, however trying to manifest yourself in other peoples perceptions as having a higher knowledge-level than you actually do is definately not fine. Then undercutting professionals who really understand what they're doing and also do this as a full-time job is even worse.
Agreed, these products definately fall into the category of what I call a: "Non-entity"
That stow site you pointed out Greg:
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="Microsoft FrontPage 5.0">Yuk!
If this is an amateur site then fine. There's nothing wrong with someone learning and messing around with different tools in their own area, especially if they can't afford a designer and they're just doing a one-off site for a specific purpose. But if this was written by a so-called "Web designer" then we have a problem
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Greg K posted this at 19:39 — 19th August 2005.
He has: 2,145 posts
Joined: Nov 2003
The sad truth is, that is the OFFICIAL site for the city I live in. I'm honestly embarrasssed about it. Almost as much as the one we have here at work (bad BAD marketing of ours...)
I gave that site as a perfect example of someone who played around with a toy (front page), and got their boss to pay them to do it instead. We used to have a pro company in the area maintain it. But they cut costs, and in turn cut their audience...
(Yes I have written to them, even created sample pages cleaned up online, log files showed they were visited, but they never wrote back. I'm ready to contact the mayor herself, but so far no responce to e-mail to her, and the city's advertiesed e-mail on the home page came back "mailbox doesn't exist". The last mayor, it was her assistant that maintained the site, so if it is the same assistant, and she screens the mayor's e-mail, would explain no reply LOL).
Just for the record, I consider myself a web programmer, as I can program the backend side of a site, The design, layout, colors, marketing, SEO, etc, I suck at, someone else here does that. As far as a web prgrammer goes, I am a professional, web designer, amatuer. Webmaster, who knows LOL
-Greg
Megan posted this at 15:47 — 20th August 2005.
She has: 11,421 posts
Joined: Jun 1999
That's pretty much where I'm at too. I'd be more comfotable working in a team with complementary skill sets.
I think we should also remember that "professionalism" is also an attitude or behaviour. It means being able to conduct onself properly in business situations and handle problems that come up. That part takes maturity and experience and in that way I'd say I'm a professional.
Megan
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Megan posted this at 14:59 — 19th August 2005.
She has: 11,421 posts
Joined: Jun 1999
Not to mention ripping off the customers!
When did that poll get there? I didn't notice it before. Anyway, I don't quite feel comfortable referring to myself as a "professional" when it comes to overall web design (in the context of this conversation). There's just too much on the business side that I don't know much about. If I wanted to start a business I'd have to do a lot of learning about SEO, marketing, things like that.
P.S. I love how british people say "ghastly"
Megan
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Greg K posted this at 02:42 — 19th August 2005.
He has: 2,145 posts
Joined: Nov 2003
There are always going to be those who think they can do it in the market. I'm also on a forum for limo companies, See the same argument there. The pro's and those who jsut rent a car. Funny how complaints are about the same
again, same complaint in both worlds. There will always be the people who will shop for price, and as long as they can't tell whats wrong, will think they saved a buck and all is well.
As with the limo world, and what the pros there point out. Never lower your standards or prices, instead raise you level of education to the customers of what they will get over the competition.
I've done a few sites before. I don't charge much. I'm not trying to undercut someone who does it for a living. *I* know what is possible out there, and knowing that do not feel comfortable charging someone the same price as a "pro" (yes, I do explain it to the people). I suck at layout and such, I much prefer backend programming
The one thing that does bother me though, seeing someone who offers cheap service, and find out, they are using illegal copies of Dreamweaver, Photoshop, etc. Seen them argue "well I bought it OEM" or "I got educational pricing". It is still against the license agreement. I'll admit, I used to do that. I hope others can come to the point where they can realize it and be able to purchase the full copies like I did. Hey if you are making $$ using the software PAY FOR IT, allocate income towards it, it's well worth it.
I'm proud that for the first time in a LONG time, my laptop is full of 100% fully legal software
Funny how this is another issue similar to limo forums compliants, there they have those who skirt permit laws and insurance laws so they can undercut the legit companies. Same as here, the customer doesn't notice until something comes up that causes them to look closer.
All in all, there is always going to be competition of different levels of ability. I do agree, there are too many people who think they can make it look pretty. (see http://www.stow.oh.us especially in firefox...) And jsut remember, no matter how good you may be, there will probably always be at least one person who conciders you not a pro to "their" standards. Just a difference in people. It's life.
My suggestion, when you see a "slop site" (my personal term for it), why not drop a friendly e-mail offering if nothing else a link to a site with tutorials on what you see wrong. Help the "newbies"
I'm going to hop off the soap box now and go watch tonight's episode of Big Brother. Glad to be able to have the place to rant once and a while
-Greg
demonhale posted this at 01:24 — 19th August 2005.
He has: 3,278 posts
Joined: May 2005
Hey bjaa I told you yesterday I thought it was on flash, and noticed it was all GIFs with javascripts... Still even with that little jagged graphics, you have proved two points... You can do certain things better than amateurs, You can have the same effect you want without using flash!
Seems we all agree about certain topics here, but what really is the issue here?
What really is the big deal? We deal with experience, Talent, Skills and training...
What else? Ive had gripes like these... I just keep doin what Im doin, and maybe time will come that people will recognize my work...
wwwben posted this at 22:07 — 18th August 2005.
He has: 270 posts
Joined: Jan 2005
and i hate what walmart does i probably shouldn't have said that
wwwben posted this at 22:07 — 18th August 2005.
He has: 270 posts
Joined: Jan 2005
its a great site 4 sure very cool
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 20:37 — 18th August 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
Joined: Jan 1970
I compleatly agree on everything you say Megan. I know the level of work that goes into each and every site I do. I spend more time modifying the page than creating the page. But what really bothers me, what the real proublem is... 90% of the people who are on the internet dont notice the diffrence between quality (professional) work and cheep amature work.
Case and point Bja888.com.
This site doesnt get anywhere near the credit it deserves. It needs a update when it comes to the visuals but that site is so cool. Everyone thinks its flash. It works in...
- FireFox (and netscape)
- IE
- Windows
- Macs
- Linux
It looks the same in all of those. Speeds might differ slightly but its quality work. Especally knowing that I had only been doing web design for 2.5 years when that site came out.
Megan posted this at 17:46 — 18th August 2005.
She has: 11,421 posts
Joined: Jun 1999
And that's cool! Nothing wrong with doing this as a hobby or for your own business. That's the way to learn!
I was just coming back to add to my last point - these aren't really commercial quality products at all so it's not comaprable to walmart or even the dollar store. I'm sure you all can think of hobbies you've had or your family or friends have had. A good hobbiest is not the same as a professional! It takes a lot of work, training, and experience to get to the next level. In web design people just keep getting this idea that hobbiest level quality is good enough to sell.
Megan
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craig747 posted this at 17:28 — 18th August 2005.
They have: 12 posts
Joined: Aug 2005
I am not a pro web designer but I have taught myself enough to design a website. That is it. My website is not brilliant but it does me with the budget I have. If I had more money I would get a pro to design my site but I currently do not. I said my site was not brilliant and to be honest it is quite the opposite. I know when I see a well designed website by a pro web designer and I know it is a million times better than mine.
To all pro web designers, I respect your ability!
Megan posted this at 16:27 — 18th August 2005.
She has: 11,421 posts
Joined: Jun 1999
It's not really like an advertisement or a newspaper. Websites are a lot more functional and interactive. It's so much more than a communications tool or an advertismeent (and it is like an advertisement its a great way for businesses to let their customers know more about them). In most cases you are communicating comething interactively and/or attempting to get people to *do something* (buy the product, sign up for the service etc.). Knowing what the goal is is important for all sites but especially business sites. A professional web designer should be able to determine what that goal is and develop a site that can accomplish it.
And not just usability - branding/marketing, attention to detail, quality development methods, knowledge of technologies and ability to choose appropriately, knowledge of design principles, ability to create something that looks good and works, ability to network, get clients, and treat them professionally etc. etc.
It is scary how many designers don't even have a baisc grasp of any of this. Many seem to think that visually flashy or impressive is enough. I was at the Pepsi site the other day (trying to find out when Pepsi One will be available in Canada) and it has got to be the most unusable site I have ever seen. "Professional web designer"? Ha!
And sure, there's room for different quality levels like there is in other markets but what so many don't realize is that what they're providing is too low quality. In other markets it wouldn't be possible to sell such garbage but since the masses don't seem to know what good web deisgn is they get away with it. If you were comparing it to a hair stylist or accountant or building contractor or something - even the bad ones have some basic level of qualifications. And the bad ones certainly won't last too long in business!
ETA: It's not Walmart quality, it's dollar store quality. And there are certain things that should not be available at the dollar store
Megan
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bja888 (not verified) posted this at 15:18 — 18th August 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
Joined: Jan 1970
The internet is an interesting media...
Your common user recognizes it is print media. (Like an advertisement)
Yet it is a communications tool. (Like a newspaper)
The thing that gets you recognition is a program suite that is geared towards 5 year olds. (Flash)
So I guess the thing the separates the professionals and the armatures is usability. For as much as everyone complains about it you would think it would be more important to the masses.
Megan posted this at 13:12 — 18th August 2005.
She has: 11,421 posts
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You're right, it's not just about being young. That's not the point. There are "older" people who are trying to do this too. The point is that way too many people pass themselves off as web designers without having anything close to the proper skills, talent, and experience.
Megan
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JeevesBond posted this at 11:35 — 18th August 2005.
He has: 3,956 posts
Joined: Jun 2002
Good point Busy, but I think the crux of this argument is experience instead of age.
Even if the guy's 50 he might have only been doing design for a week
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Busy posted this at 11:15 — 18th August 2005.
He has: 6,151 posts
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I don't think age is really a factor, I redid a site that had been done by a 'professional', I believe he was in his 50's. He must be colour blind or something as the orgainal site had a blue background with blue (a diferent shade of blue) text, plus blue links and half the pages weren't linked ...
wwwben posted this at 01:37 — 18th August 2005.
He has: 270 posts
Joined: Jan 2005
hey I get a few jobs a month and its basicly because I have a personal and professional approach with people. I need the money and I charge less than anyone in my are just to get the job. So I guess you could say I am the Walmart of web design in michigan.
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 02:07 — 18th August 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
Joined: Jan 1970
Funny. Wal-mart doesnt offer quality though. In fact, I'm starting to think manufactures make a few diffrent version of the same product then ship and price based on quality. exaple...
I have 2 LG Flattron L1720P flat panel monitors. One I bought at best buy when this model was first sold retail for $380. Then my 2nd monitor at that time died. So I went and found the same model that I bought at best buy online for $210. To make a long story short. One I am looking at right now with a CRT next to it. The other is in the top of my closit waiting its fate. I am going to have to go back to best buy when I get enough money.
Same idea can be applyed to web design. The client should pay for only what they need. Nothing else, nothing more.
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 19:08 — 19th August 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
Joined: Jan 1970
I was randomly clicking thangs and got a poll up. I though it would be intresting to see.
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 17:28 — 17th September 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
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ShadeX your argument is clear and right on but the proublem lies with the client. The presedent would rather have the work of a 13 year old rather than a professional becuase it looks better. Its futial to try and explain that a profesionals work is over all better for the company.
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 16:12 — 22nd August 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
Joined: Jan 1970
I really don’t like designing but I am forced to do it. I cannot find anyone who wants to work with me ever. So I am really tiring to work on it .
That would be why I have a website the highlights quality not design (I'm talking about optimal source) 
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 03:51 — 20th August 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
Joined: Jan 1970
Government funded sites are all bad... I wish it wernt so.
teammatt3 posted this at 01:26 — 18th August 2005.
He has: 2,102 posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Should only the best get jobs? There are a lot of landscapers out there, and some are better than others, why should the best one get all the business? That doesn't make sense. What's wrong with taking away jobs from other people if your doing good enough to get clients?
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 01:23 — 18th August 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
Joined: Jan 1970
The arguement isnt if someone is or is not a webmaster. Is more, are you good and are you takeing jobs away from those who are better?
projectpete posted this at 16:44 — 10th November 2005.
They have: 53 posts
Joined: Nov 2005
if people are taking jobs away from you then you must not be better for the customer. if you have a web design company you cant just rely on design, like any business you have to make the whole package the most attractive to the customer. if your site looks that much better than the customer will be justified in spending the more money, if it isnt then I wouldnt throw my money away either
this can be said in any profession. "is it fair that a mechanic that rips people off by doing a poor job quickly get more clients than another mechanic that is honest and prides himself on quality?"
in many professions what the client wants and what the person providing the service recommends is totally different. if the customer is happy then the webdesigner did a good job. it doesnt matter what you think, what customer thinks is #1
wwwben posted this at 01:13 — 18th August 2005.
He has: 270 posts
Joined: Jan 2005
ok here is my thoughts (as if anyone cares)
a good web site is decided by the customers happiness. If a young person can deliver a functional website that the customer likes..then mission accomplished. Anyone elses opinion is just that..an opinion.
to the professional or not topic... how is a professional technicly defined?
according to http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2005-30,GGLG:en&oi=defmore&q=define:professional
1.master: an authority qualified to teach apprentices
2.Being paid to do an activity as the significant portion of one’s income.
so if #2 is true then i am a pro! lol
teammatt3 posted this at 21:23 — 17th August 2005.
He has: 2,102 posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Don't you think some younger people are better designers than some of the older ones? I really don't think age has anything to do with design capabilities. It's a matter of interacting with client and how the designer treats the client. I have a couple of friends who can design a lot better than companies around here. But they just don’t communicate very well.
chrishirst posted this at 06:34 — 17th August 2005.
He has: 379 posts
Joined: Apr 2005
good discussion. only one thing detracts from it
the spelling of amateur
and BTW.
An armature is the rotating part of an electric motor or generator
Chris
Indifference will be the downfall of mankind, but who cares?
Venue Capacity Monitoring
Code Samples
demonhale posted this at 06:40 — 17th August 2005.
He has: 3,278 posts
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Greg K posted this at 04:52 — 17th August 2005.
He has: 2,145 posts
Joined: Nov 2003
Oh you think this field is tough, try desktop publishing. It may just be me, but I can spot an inkjet printed publication (or worse, "business card") a mile away, and to me, it says "unprofessional".
I deal with people that stop and think, hmm, he wants $.20 a page for a color flyer, at 250 copies, that's $50... Then they see their inkjet printer sitting there, and decide they can save money by printing them themselves. Then a week after that, complaining at the costs of ink when it runs out during soemthing else....
-Greg
teammatt3 posted this at 03:08 — 17th August 2005.
He has: 2,102 posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Yup, that's me. But my situation is a little different. Local web development companies (real ones) outsource to me, so I never meet with customers. When my aunt wanted me to do her website I told her to go through a real company, not me. It's not fair for a real company to compete with dorky 16 year old kids. I have no problems with 16 year old kids applying for jobs at web design companies, as I did. They shouldn't design on their own, though.
Busy posted this at 22:06 — 16th August 2005.
He has: 6,151 posts
Joined: May 2001
There is a lot more to web designing than just knowing (x)HTML or how to use an editor.
Webdesigning (if solo) is a whole package, you design the code to the layout (or vis-versa), hopefully validate it making it more browser compatible, then even hopefully adapt some 504 or section8 elements into the layout. Images, banners or logos need to be made or sourced. The site then has to be uploaded and submitted to search engines, updates and links have to be maintained ...
In a company sense a webdesigner usually just does one part (the code) but is part of a team, singular this person is nothing, the team is everything.
Think of the team as a hand - the webdesigner may be the thumb, but without the fingers it's useless, being solo you need to be the whole hand.
To create a site in frontpage and upload it to the net, anyone can do it (and they do), maintaining a name on the net is another ball game all together. I've actually seen one or two really good designs made with frontpage, the site fell over on some browsers but was only because their knowledge was limited, and the person was stuborn with the "it looks great to me so should to everyone else" attitude.
I think more people need to remember the golden rule of webdesign - we design for other people. Our own likes, dislikes, favorites should not come into it, design for the topic whether it be a business site, a personal site or something else.
Structure is king, design a solid foundation (code base), then comes content and everything else are extras (unless it's a graphic based topic).
I am not a webdesigner, sure I have created all my sites, code, images etc but I suck at creating images, my SEO knowledge is only limited yet I can create and maintain an e-commerce site easily. I am somewhere between an amature and professional. If I had to title myself it would be developer or something
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 04:05 — 17th August 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
Joined: Jan 1970
At this point I would like any armature to defend your position. It makes for good conversation.
demonhale posted this at 18:15 — 16th August 2005.
He has: 3,278 posts
Joined: May 2005
I also remember spidermans motto "with great power comes great responsibility"...
If I chose too im better in hacking than in designing, maybe Ill hack their site... LOL!
demonhale posted this at 18:12 — 16th August 2005.
He has: 3,278 posts
Joined: May 2005
Yeah that ticks me off too! Especially when even forum members tend to classify you amature just because youre no good in certain aspects of design and instead of helping just crack it all up, its not like im asking for codes, aligning (as mentioned) and the stuff when all you really need are diffusion of ideas to make certain things LOOK better...
Maybe youve read before I also teach basic html, when I say basic I mean b-a-s-i-c...
See I also have this student once with onle a semester from me, her mom has this good business here of clubs, resorts, hotels and she decided to make a site for her... She didnt told me at first, it seems shes quite interested learning that shes always asking for additional notes, thats not against my better judgement but she knows this and then post up this site with all the pictures and bells and blah... And then name it coded by me??? Then she was kind enough to tick me off again by posting a link for my old site... Then one day her mom asked who did their site and it was crappy, she pointed at me, then her mom asked me if she paid anything or what... I said no, then explained what had happened (who would she believe anyways?)... She birate me and all and took it up against the school for me doing business inside the campus... Which I dont... It was all up in the air, so lucky enough I got a few sites on the works for local business of a few of my students and was able to show her what I can really do professionally, So again I setup a confrontation and drop all these infront of her as well ...
Im not so shitty that I'll post a client site that doesnt even quilify to my standards...
Im a little fish in the sea, but Im no shark...
but little things sting too ya know?
Megan posted this at 18:05 — 16th August 2005.
She has: 11,421 posts
Joined: Jun 1999
I agree. It seems that people still haven't realized that good Web Design takes experience, talent, and a lot of knowledge. Unfortunately the clients don't know the difference between good and bad and end up with a lot of poor quality products. So many people offering sites at "bargain basement prices!" People haven't yet realized that when it comes to web design "bargain basement" means "garbage." Shameful, the kind of stuff that passes for professional web design! I was browsing through some local directories recently and was appalled at what was available in my area.
I don't think the practice of having admin assitants doing website updates is such a huge problem. If the site is properly designed by a real professional and the assistant is properly trained it shouldn't be a huge problem. Fits well with the normal responsibilities for those sorts of jobs.
I DO have a problem with inexperienced beginners passing themselves off as professional web designers. I've said this before: there's a reason why web designers have a reputation for being 16 year-old kids working out of their bedrooms. It gives us all a bad name and I don't see it letting up anytime soon. I don't even like to tell people that I'm a web designer (unskillled creator of cheap junk) - I'll use "developer" instead or some variation of my actual job title (online course developer).
We see it over and over again here - someone discovers web design, comes here and reads about people doing this for a living. Right away they think they can do it too. The sad thing is that they actually get clients! Web design has gotten a reptuation for being easy, which isn't not, and that leads business owners to believe that they can get a good site for very little money.
ETA: The more serious problem with this is that the unskilled beginners are undercutting the market to the point where the skilled designer can't compete. If I wanted to go out on my own I'd have a hard time making the kind of money I can get doing something else.
I also think that even reasonably capable designers are missing the point of design in a lot of cases. You see peopole focusing on visual design, navigation, technologies, and functionality. Nobody talks about what the site is really supposed to be doing - making the client's business better. Unfrotunately people still tend to see websites as eye candy - like a status symbol almost rather than a business tool. I think this is why small business web design has been such a failure. I'm seeing a lot of jobs for marketing people with web design experience so it looks like this could be a new trend. This is what really separates the best from the rest in this field.
Megan
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