Quote: Oh, so google does not use php? Which means they use a programming language like asp does?
There just is no comparison between what Google does and ASP or PHP, it's completely different. Ok, so in ASP you tell the web server to instantiate objects then access their properties and methods and in PHP you tell the web server to instantiate the PHP dll and access it's properties and methods. Google has written it's own web server that recieves http requests and does whatever they programmed the web server to do (see the video in that previous post). This has no relation to PHP or ASP, that layer of the application has been removed entirely.
Quote: You can't write an asp page with just asp.
It's ok, I know how ASP works, it's what I do for a day job... That doesn't mean I like it though.
Quote: I could be wrong but I think C# beats the crap out of php any day.
Muchly depends what you're doing with it, what your requirements are and also what you as a developer prefer (see Gregs post - absolutely correct IMO).
Ill second you on that Meg...
Congrats on your new job bja, hope that makes you busy enough for the time being...
I was staying away commenting on the way the thread has turned out but I must type these to say my peace...
I was trained to code (in school) from basic machine language in binary in many level languages... (we concentrated on motorola though) We use our own compile and decompile softwares for what we do, we started learning from C, C++ C#, pascal, basic, VB, Delphi and all of that but i never became biased... Instead all of these made it easier for me to learn html and all its iterations faster. In the net I started before as an idiot who usually collect username and passwords on other sites, use backdoors and break in just for fun (Which I totally forget now, I was very young that time) I evolved learning web coding step by step, started with as little as basic html to javascript to php css and all these in their own time... Im not perfectly the best in all of these but at least Ill continue learning... The important thing here is, in whatever you decide to do, make the best out of it, give it your all, whatever you decide is your own achievement... Im just glad im still here, a better person out of all this chaos... (Ill stop now, im getting a little melodramatic)
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 17:07 — 12th October 2005.
demonhale wrote: Congrats on your new job bja, hope that makes you busy enough for the time being...
I was staying away commenting on the way the thread has turned out but I must type these to say my peace...
I was trained to code (in school) from basic machine language in binary in many level languages... (we concentrated on motorola though) We use our own compile and decompile softwares for what we do, we started learning from C, C++ C#, pascal, basic, VB, Delphi and all of that but i never became biased... Instead all of these made it easier for me to learn html and all its iterations faster. In the net I started before as an idiot who usually collect username and passwords on other sites, use backdoors and break in just for fun (Which I totally forget now, I was very young that time) I evolved learning web coding step by step, started with as little as basic html to javascript to php css and all these in their own time... Im not perfectly the best in all of these but at least Ill continue learning... The important thing here is, in whatever you decide to do, make the best out of it, give it your all, whatever you decide is your own achievement... Im just glad im still here, a better person out of all this chaos... (Ill stop now, im getting a little melodramatic)
Thank you on the congrats
So with your strong codeing background witch do you suggest and/or perfer? php or asp (in any language).
Please remeber that even in PHP where it is not so strict on the way you program, a good programmer can have great code that is properly writen to minimize errors and mistakes.
The language is that, a language. If you have an idiuot programming, no matter what language they can still make "crap code". Some just put more into preventing the crap code, some make it easier to create. But both can be used properly.
I also am one who beleives while objects and classes are nice for complex things, there are just some projects that it is overkill using them. This is an argument I have heard from my boss on a simple program to add people to a mailing list "where are your classes". One thing that seems to have become lost is the idea of optimizing code. Myself, I like it tidy with as little overhead as possible, no matter which language you are using.
I have avoided this topic mainly the same way I avoid other topics like this. It basically comes down to what you are used to and what you have available to use. If you started from scratch using ASP, you will prefer it over PHP becasue you know how to do things in it already. Myself I started with PHP, and used it for most of the web work I do, so I can do most of my programming without any reference material, straight off of the of my head. This si the reason I prefer Corel Draw over Illustrator. I have been using Corel Draw since 1997, and it's jsut what I am used to. I also prefer Word Perfect, been using that since the first Windows version, so I personnally dislike Word. I use more than "basic" layouts and such, and just know already how to do them in WP. Same arguement as which is beter, Macs or Windows or Linux. Whatever you started learning on you are probably going to prefer over the others.
I fel the only way one person can say "XXX is better than YYY is if they have truely given completely equal time and effort into trying both, which is very rare. Otherwise, the best you can do is say "well I prefer XXX becasue of {reasons}" To say a definate "XXX is better" with nothing to back it up IMO makes you look like a fool. You cannot learn one language from scratch, know it well, and then say you are learning another the exact same way. It is natural that you will always be in your mind comparing the way you are used to to the way you do not yet understand. It is hard.
It took me a while to switch from PERL to PHP. I know it will take me a while to learn ASP. But I'm looking forward to it, and I know to learn it at my own pace, don't try it for a project needing done becasue I will get frustrated, say screw it, and go do it in the language I already know. (I do this a lot at work with files someone else created in Illustrator. It is faster for me to go rebuild them in COrel Draw LOL)
I'm not posting this to put anyone down, this is just how I feel the siutuation is. My hope is that whenever someone comes on here new to web/programming or done it for years, try to give them backed opinions instead of just plain biased answers, and sometimes, we don't even realize they are biased. (I'm guilty too, but I try)
-Greg
JeevesBond posted this at 23:58 — 11th October 2005.
This is a misnomer, it is not for 13 year olds. Here's an example: This forum is based upon vBulletin - the industry standard forum software - which uses PHP/MySQL. The guys at Jelsoft are not 13, Megan is not 13, I'm not 13 and I don't think any of the other mods here are either. Please refrain from making grand sweeping statements you simply cannot qualify - tallon is here to look for guidance and the "information" you are peddling is dangerous, unprofessional and could make all of us look like fools.
bja888 wrote: Everything in php is a top level function. Meaning its simple you just tell it what you want it to do and it does it. Not much room for being specific or customizing it.
What? What does this mean exactly: That you don't have a massive COM object overhead because most of the functions commonly used are built into the PHP DLL? Well that's not an advantage, it slows everything down, although you can get extra modules for PHP to extend its functionality, you could also write your own or probably (not sure on the specifics of this) get PHP to call a script in a different language, or an executable etc straight from the command line.
bja888 wrote: Where as asp uses a specific data type and allows you to add/modify it before the action is carried out.
PHP isn't a strongly typed language, so what? The second part makes no sense, are you saying you can't change the value of a variable in PHP?
Google never used ASP, they use massive Linux clusters (some of them over 2000 PC's - imagine how much all those Windoze licenses would cost, and anyway Steve Ballmer is going to bury Google), considering the way Google works they will have written their own software to handle queries - I'd guess it's written in C/C++ since they use Linux.
JeevesBond wrote: Google never used ASP, they use massive Linux clusters (some of them over 2000 PC's - imagine how much all those Windoze licenses would cost, and anyway Steve Ballmer is going to bury Google), considering the way Google works they will have written their own software to handle queries - I'd guess it's written in C/C++ since they use Linux.
Oh, so google does not use php? Which means they use a programming language like asp does? You can't write an asp page with just asp. You need a programming language to run the asp. My personal fave is C#. I could be wrong but I think C# beats the crap out of php any day.
Now lets back up a step before you get out the nails and the cross...
I said a few posts back, choose the environment you are most comfortable with. I gave tallen a choice, never told him to go with a specific one. Each has its over positives and negatives. Php is quick and simple and ASP teaches you a programming language. (A was actually writing a program last night with less than 6 months experience in C# and no classes or books on it) I let tallen choose his own path and I want everyone else reading this to do the same. The things I argue are things I could NOT work with. Most people I have worked with Including the job I got yesterday (finally employed ) use linux hosting. So I will have to deal with php on occasion but I could never write complex software in it.
demonhale posted this at 05:47 — 11th October 2005.
One is usually going to get biased information when asked PHP/ASP.
On that note, being a PHP person myself, I would recommend PHP.
Why is PHP for 13 year olds? Because it is simple to use, setup and learn? To me, it just means increased productivity because you spend less time coding and setting up.
Getting ones spelling and grammar right is also another step towards the whole "professional" image.
First of all, if you've read my posts above you'd realize I graduate arizona college (arizona state university) with a degree in both accounting and management next december. High School? Please.
Just learned webdesign? Who said that? In high school I taught my teacher the entire semester on webpages and photoshop (yes, at the time i had an illegal copy. I admit that). She taught me *nothing* about either. But I just learned web design huh... Oh, she also asked me to come back 3 years later to teach her class things that she couldn't. So...
I've been out of the "loop", so to speak for 4-5 years. Infact, I registered on the forums 5 years ago. Almost 6.
I'm not naive about succeeding on the web. I know it's hard work, hell... accounting is hard work. I can do it, and I can do it well. But I have to force myself to do it... other people, they go HOME TO READ ACCOUNTING BOOKS FOR FUN! I couldn't believe it when I found that out. I do better than a good majority of them at accounting too.. But *they* are the ones who made the right decision on a career. I went with something I shouldn't have. I'm just correcting that. It will be a hell of a lot of work to do well owning a business designing/developing websites. Especially getting to that professional level. I also have 2-3 years before I can even think of doing it, as I first have to graduate and get some other things going (as I explained above). If I'm ready by then... great. If not, I'll keep at it. I tend to learn quite fast when I'm actually interested in what I'm doing.
<-- 22 yrs old and married. Not a 13 year old kid trying to "get rich quick" or anything else.
Oh, and in all seriousness... good luck on your interview.
-tallon
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 05:08 — 11th October 2005.
tallon wrote: First of all, if you've read my posts above you'd realize I graduate arizona college (arizona state university) with a degree in both accounting and management next december. High School? Please.
Sorry about that, I remember now. I don't know what I was thinking when I posted that. Sorry, most people who have < 100 posts don't know much about web design. I was kinda curious about the registered date.
bja888 wrote: Sorry, most people who have < 100 posts don't know much about web design.
This is absolute bullshit. By that logic I must know everything there is to know! Um, no. Just because someone is new here or hasn't posted much doesn't mean they don't have skills or knowlege. Quite the opposite in many cases.
Megan wrote: This is absolute bullshit. By that logic I must know everything there is to know! Um, no. Just because someone is new here or hasn't posted much doesn't mean they don't have skills or knowlege. Quite the opposite in many cases.
I already apologised onece, tour going to make me do it again? I assumed he diden't know much about html (ect.) and I was wrong. I don't even read the posts asking how (for example) center text useing css. There are alot of newcomers need real basic help. Thus the reason why they join. Onece again... I was wrong in this case. Sorry again...
bja888 wrote: Sorry about that, I remember now. I don't know what I was thinking when I posted that. Sorry, most people who have < 100 posts don't know much about web design. I was kinda curious about the registered date.
Thanks for being man enough to apologize.
No harm done.
-tallon
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 02:20 — 11th October 2005.
You gotta crawl before you walk. You just learned web deign and want to be a web design professional right out of college (or high school?). Here is a little info that might scare you a little...
I have been doing web design for 5 whole years and I'm working on #6. I am only 19 years old. I am proficient in html (not xhtml), css and JavaScript. I also am good at ASP, flash, xml and C#. I know most (if not all) of do's and dont's of the web.
I have been looking for a job for the past 6 months, I went to many interviews and still unable to find a suitable job. I am possibly getting an assistant tomorrow (depending on how the interview goes).
Also I made a attempt at a internet based business, I haven’t given up yet but it has been up for a month now without a single sale. I just don't have time to fix its flaws right now. http://www.optimalsource.biz
You don't like php because it has less "professionalism" to it? If that's the only difference, besides ASP being (i'm assuming here) harder to learn... then PHP wins out.
Anyway, thx for the replies.
And as for what I plan to do... Once I graduate, me and a friend are starting a business. We're getting another friend to be the main manager, as he's knows the field very well, though I know all of it almost as well.
After we get it off the ground and stable, say a year or so, me and my partner will be able to be more "hands off" with the business and let the other person do most of the day-to-day managing. So we'll be free to do other things.
At most, I'll have to spend 2-4 hours a day with the business. (this is a rough estimate based on another business like what we are going in to. We know the owner...)
So... the rest of the time I would like to use to create webpages. I wouldn't go work for someone else, I don't like being under other people. . I want to create a small web design company to keep me busy and generate some cash on the side. I don't mind if we don't get *huge*, but I also want to be as good as I can be. (I never accept any less).
So there you have it. If you think it can't be done... hey, let me know. LoL.
So the plan is staying stable with php/mysql/xhtml/css/photoshop.
-tallon
demonhale posted this at 14:47 — 10th October 2005.
40,000/year minimum is the figure I keep seeing. Good luck on your journey to "mastering" php.
By the way "php" and "high-end professional" don't mix. I don't know any big businesses that use php or if they are any at all. I said it once and I'll say it again... php is for 13 year olds.
Another note, designing pays more than programming.
I though designers got more, I don't have any proof so JeevesBond is probably right.
In regards to php vs. asp. Everything in php is a top level function. Meaning its simple you just tell it what you want it to do and it does it. Not much room for being specific or customizing it. Where as asp uses a specific data type and allows you to add/modify it before the action is carried out.
Its like a child’s room... Do you want everything right there on the floor? Or do you want it all organized into specific spots? The really have mostly the same functionality but its mostly the level of professionalism when writing the code.
There is one more slight proublem with ASP that will eather help you make you angry. ASP is not a self-contained language. So you have to learn another language to run it. Large list, each languge has its own features. JScript, VisualBasic, C++ or C#.
Busy wrote: Umm didn't yahoo and google etc move over to PHP/MYSQL after the last Microsoft attack ?
Sure! They just pushed the php butten and all their asp was suddenly running in php!
I really don't see any diffrence between all the SQL programms so I don't have anything for or agienst them.
You guys say the amateur's are undercutting the pro's...
Well, I'm at a critical time in my life right now. I could continue in what I"m planning on doing... *mastering* php, MySQL, xhtml, and some things like photoshop. Also wanting to learn design theory/color theory if I can find info on that.
Or, I could do anything else. Hell... I graduate from college in a year with a degree in management and accounting. I don't want to manage a huge store or anything, and accounting (sadly, found this out too late) bores the hell out of me. But I could do it.
So I have a question...
How much would the "average" proffesional make annually? How about a high-end proffesional? (I don't want to be anything below average, and I certainly want to be above that.) It's a lot of hard work to be a professional. I know of one guy who said he makes a minimum of 200 dollars an hour. However, that was a few years ago and he was (still is) very good. Was he just an exception?
Thx...
Oh, and for the topic at hand... ya, I see a problem with it. A parallel I can relate it too... You heard of miniature games? IE: Warhammer 40k. Go search on ebay for painted models, there are TONS who say "pro-painted" or something to that effect in the title. When you go... it's absolutely amateur. It's to the point where some of the pro's that I know (that can sell a single painted miniature for over 250 bucks) purposely don't put pro in their name. It's not undercutting them (hey, you know the quality you're getting by the pictures), but it puts a bad image out there of what a "pro" is.
And the simple fact that an amateur is trying to pass himself off as pro...
tallon wrote: bja, mind expanding on why PHP is "for 13 year old kids"? If it's so bad, what *is* good and worthy of hard study.
How much would you say a designer would get?
He doesn't know what he's talking about. Designers get paid much less than programmers would (generally speaking). More (and better) jobs in programming too. You can go to sites like salary.com to find out how much professionals would make in your area. Combining your background in management with web programming could be very successful.
As for php - no time to elaborate on that but bja is full of **** on that one too.
The only web design teacher I had knew enough about html and computers but I had to teach her the new stuff like CSS. I think I should start looking for a a web consulting job. Sounds easy...
edit: Love the story megan. I got pissed off my first day of web publishing... I would of thrown a fit in that class. The second he said "you dont need to learn html" I would of walked out.
I have a similar experience with education - that's a whole other monster, unfortunately! It's unbelievable how many unqualified people are actually teaching others their garbage techniques. I guess this goes back to the thread in Webmasetr's Corner on goals and how we can work to change that.
A lot of educational programs also seem to concentrate on teaching the software rather than actual design techniques..
Megan wrote: A lot of educational programs also seem to concentrate on teaching the software rather than actual design techniques..
I think that's understandable, though. When you buy programming software, it doesn't tell you how to be a good programmer. It assumes you learned that somewhere.
Well, actually it just doesn't care. But you get the idea.
EDIT: I just reread your quote and realized you said "educational programs." I thought you were talking about what came with the software. I think you're correct after all.
I am doing my bit for the education side of things, I usually block all intrusive linking to my html site as I do follow the logs for bots etc, I have allowed at least 3 schools to keep linking to my site as they suggest my site (and a couple of others) in their exams. Crazy if you ask me, but hey if it helps ... (must update the site one day as is a bit out dated).
Btw this has not been some shamless self promotion, just some useless information
Why is word the default html editor? I have always wonderd that...
Well I am about 20 or so days till I go broke and have to sell my car. Because these other people are far better than me at web design. (Still got a since of humor)
Someone I did a website for his father, asked me if I could help his girlfriend with a class she was taking. She was an education major, and the class was to teach them how to make web sites, so as a teacher they could have a web page with information for their students.
I enjoy that, and enjoyed hanging out with them, so I said sure. Get into it, there were about 10 projects. One of them used Front Page. <--- THAT IS THE GOOD SIDE of the story. The other nine used MS Word, Excel, and GASP, Publisher! I kid you not!! They were even told how nice word is becasue you can put in large pictures and just drag them to the size you want. (and does anyone else share my pet peeve about webpages with "clip art"? I mean come on, has the "clip art makers" been in a time freeze since 1995 or what?)
And as for the page publisher made... it was ONE LARGE IMAGE (text and all) with an image map for all the links.
Sad sad sad. TO be honest, if i had a business and had to hire a programmer or web person, I think I would take someone without a degree first. (now specialized certification, may be a different story, but that costs an arm and a leg, and I see why)
-Greg
demonhale posted this at 01:31 — 6th October 2005.
Yeah and thats my point too, thats why I advocate standards, BTW I teach basic html too, some CSS these to secondary school students, I even tried to tied up with schools to teach the knowledge about the internet, not for them to think Local but Global as well... Marginalized societies tend to put themselves down, so I want to instill to them a different mindset... First and foremost also I was from print media, I can make great digital images as well as by hand... Then as I said before I tried to use the net as a medium which lead me to learning about all the coding and stuff, evolving as time goes by, still I edit codes by hand, but then I still use images and graphics that are well spliced up, I learned the hard way to like most of you, but the point is, what difference are you going to be in the industry? Whats the purpose? Yes Money, I need that too, but first and foremost I love what I do, Ill keep doing it, keep learning, and advocate standards,...
A friend of mine just finished 'design school' i.e..print and web. First off they basically taught how to use programs, Illustrator, Photoshop, and Quark.
Her instructer who taught 'web design' spoke these words:
"You MUST do websites in Photoshop. If anyone uses Dreamweaver you'll fail." All she was taught was to slice up an image in Photoshop..that's it. Nothing about code, nothing about standards. Sites these people are putting out are nothing more than big images sliced up.
Fortuatly, she did part of her internship with me, and I got her started with hand coding to standards with XHTML and CSS.
On the print side, she was not taught theory...simply how to use software.
It makes me really angry that schools get away with teaching wrong.
Roo
demonhale posted this at 14:00 — 5th October 2005.
He was busy using frontpage to make webpages... Anyways... whatever you use as a development platform it still depends wether your earning ethically or earning in unethical ways, like the real point of this thread, for example I could earn loads of cash by generating a bunch of porn sites and so on, but then I chose not to because of ethical reasons...
I earn $$ with everything I can on the Internet.. and I do not rule out porn because it's "unethical".... I had to start from scratch about 2 years agoand my need for free traffic lead me to get into adult $$, it's about 40% of my income now...
I have made millions of "ethical" dollars with Front Page and asp code I tought myself.. I have never read a book about HTML... in the past I programmed in Pascal.. like 13 years ago...
I tried Dreamwaver for 1 day... but Front Page is better becuase I can use it to manage my content and folders on my server. I dont know anything about managing databases or servers. All I know is Front Page.. and FTP
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bja888 (not verified) posted this at 16:50 — 5th October 2005.
sercee wrote: asp code I tought myself.. I have never read a book about HTML...
I am compleatly self taught in html to asp.net. The only diffrence is, I diden't start in a visual editor (i.e. Frontpage and Dreamweaver). Notepad was my editor of choice. When you create a whole website in html you gain a little understanding how it works. (All that experence went to crap when I learned xhtml)
Please don't take this personaly but I think the internet could use less of your type. It's my personal goal to to everything I can to make the quality of the internet better. I don't mind you continue on your current path. I just ask you keep tring to improve your site(s).
timjpriebe posted this at 13:07 — 5th October 2005.
Sercee, what if you found you could produce those same web pages faster in Dreamweaver, but it would take you a month or so to get up to speed in Dreamweaver? That's what I ended up finding out, for myself at least. The month or so is frustrating, but once I made the switch I was very glad I did.
BTW, have you really lurked for two years without posting. That's a long time!
timjpriebe wrote: Sercee, what if you found you could produce those same web pages faster in Dreamweaver, but it would take you a month or so to get up to speed in Dreamweaver? That's what I ended up finding out, for myself at least. The month or so is frustrating, but once I made the switch I was very glad I did.
BTW, have you really lurked for two years without posting. That's a long time!
Yeah.. I was also surprised to see that I had not post before..
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I would not call myself an amateur webmaster... but maybe you would because I only use front page and a little asp, and my web sites are always very simple, but my users like it.. and I have been able to single handly make millions of dollars online since 2000 using only front page....
I have never tried any other program, and have no interest to do so
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bja888 (not verified) posted this at 06:21 — 27th September 2005.
You sound like you are learning. Good for you! Myabe one day you will have to start selling your personal posessions because some amature too your job. Just like me
Mikel108 posted this at 07:08 — 27th September 2005.
bja888 wrote: You sound like you are learning. Good for you! Myabe one day you will have to start selling your personal posessions because some amature too your job. Just like me
LOL. Actually this is the only site I plan on doing, and only because the other option was to let them shut it down. Like I said before not enough money for a pro.
BTW I make auto parts, and I cannot live on $3 a day like where my job is going to. So I do feel your pain. However this is no different than mechanics, plumbers, carpenters ect that see hacks offer to do work for almost nothing, and then the customer wonders why it was not done right.
After trying my hand at web site building, I can tell you that I have a lot of respect for the work that goes into this. I can certainly tell a professional site right away now.
Best Regards,
Mikel108
Greg K posted this at 17:52 — 26th September 2005.
One note, you may want to get started on creating your own banner from scratch. If it was done by the "pro" and he did refuse to give rights to use it, then there is potential legal issues.
If i need to mdofiy anything that was maintained by someone else, I try to convert it to all original material.
-Greg
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 15:28 — 26th September 2005.
I don't want to sound crule even though I will proubally come off that way but... when you say
Quote: It ended up being functional and looking good (but not excellent like the pros)
functional to you is proubaly not functional to the rest of the professional commnuity. There are soo many factors that go into each layout/design/page/line. For you purpose it is proubally acceptable though.
Quote: ...looking good (but not excellent like the pros)
There is more to a website than just making it look good. I've gotten banned from some fourms because I insulted their website. When the file size of the page is larger than if you just make it all a image you have a proublem.
Mikel108 posted this at 16:26 — 26th September 2005.
bja888 wrote: I don't want to sound crule even though I will proubally come off that way but... when you say functional to you is proubaly not functional to the rest of the professional commnuity. There are soo many factors that go into each layout/design/page/line. For you purpose it is proubally acceptable though.
There is more to a website than just making it look good. I've gotten banned from some fourms because I insulted their website. When the file size of the page is larger than if you just make it all a image you have a proublem.
Hi,
Your right on one thing. I left the main banner as a bitmap by mistake and it loads at a whopping 295kb. Its functional because things do not change rapidly for us. The forms are embedded and they are donation and membership forms. Then I list the board. I would list the URL but it is a political party site and most forums do not like this kind of stuff. I can tell you that a rework is already in process from the things I learned here.
And this is quite different from actually sellling your serivices. If someone was paying you significants of money to do that. Nothing wrong with being an amateur at all! Just something wrong with amateurs passing themselves off as professionals.
Do introduce yourself, and let me know where in SW Ontario you're from!
The point is bjaa is that I suggest he needs to hire a developer if he wants one, but if his bad at designs but would like to learn layouting a site for his needs then he could use a template as he suggested himself...
demonhale posted this at 13:25 — 18th September 2005.
The best example of an artsy site I might say is CSS zen garden... But as one person said, even sometimes we can make mistakes like making sites just because we can, not because we need it... Templates from template farms is good for you if you really dont need to hire a developer and want to code the template over to translate it to the web...
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 19:27 — 18th September 2005.
demonhale wrote: Templates from template farms is good for you
Have you ever bought a tempate? It's the most 1/2 a** piece of sh** excuse for web design I have ever seen. My personal openion... Hire a pro or buy from a respectable site like mine (http://www.optimalsource.biz) Stay away from main stream template sites.
locatepeople posted this at 11:55 — 18th September 2005.
I'm good at coding and producing websites to a general "Ok" level. What I need to take the next step is more php, perl knowledge and the ability to really design good looking sites. No idea how you produce websites that are abit more "artsy".
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JeevesBond posted this at 21:31 — 12th October 2005.
He has: 3,956 posts
Joined: Jun 2002
There just is no comparison between what Google does and ASP or PHP, it's completely different. Ok, so in ASP you tell the web server to instantiate objects then access their properties and methods and in PHP you tell the web server to instantiate the PHP dll and access it's properties and methods. Google has written it's own web server that recieves http requests and does whatever they programmed the web server to do (see the video in that previous post). This has no relation to PHP or ASP, that layer of the application has been removed entirely.
It's ok, I know how ASP works, it's what I do for a day job... That doesn't mean I like it though.
Muchly depends what you're doing with it, what your requirements are and also what you as a developer prefer (see Gregs post - absolutely correct IMO).
Congrats on the job bja888, good luck!
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demonhale posted this at 15:58 — 12th October 2005.
He has: 3,278 posts
Joined: May 2005
Ill second you on that Meg...
Congrats on your new job bja, hope that makes you busy enough for the time being...
I was staying away commenting on the way the thread has turned out but I must type these to say my peace...
I was trained to code (in school) from basic machine language in binary in many level languages... (we concentrated on motorola though) We use our own compile and decompile softwares for what we do, we started learning from C, C++ C#, pascal, basic, VB, Delphi and all of that but i never became biased... Instead all of these made it easier for me to learn html and all its iterations faster. In the net I started before as an idiot who usually collect username and passwords on other sites, use backdoors and break in just for fun (Which I totally forget now, I was very young that time) I evolved learning web coding step by step, started with as little as basic html to javascript to php css and all these in their own time... Im not perfectly the best in all of these but at least Ill continue learning... The important thing here is, in whatever you decide to do, make the best out of it, give it your all, whatever you decide is your own achievement... Im just glad im still here, a better person out of all this chaos... (Ill stop now, im getting a little melodramatic)
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 17:07 — 12th October 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
Joined: Jan 1970
Thank you on the congrats
So with your strong codeing background witch do you suggest and/or perfer? php or asp (in any language).
Greg K posted this at 02:07 — 12th October 2005.
He has: 2,145 posts
Joined: Nov 2003
Please remeber that even in PHP where it is not so strict on the way you program, a good programmer can have great code that is properly writen to minimize errors and mistakes.
The language is that, a language. If you have an idiuot programming, no matter what language they can still make "crap code". Some just put more into preventing the crap code, some make it easier to create. But both can be used properly.
I also am one who beleives while objects and classes are nice for complex things, there are just some projects that it is overkill using them. This is an argument I have heard from my boss on a simple program to add people to a mailing list "where are your classes". One thing that seems to have become lost is the idea of optimizing code. Myself, I like it tidy with as little overhead as possible, no matter which language you are using.
I have avoided this topic mainly the same way I avoid other topics like this. It basically comes down to what you are used to and what you have available to use. If you started from scratch using ASP, you will prefer it over PHP becasue you know how to do things in it already. Myself I started with PHP, and used it for most of the web work I do, so I can do most of my programming without any reference material, straight off of the of my head. This si the reason I prefer Corel Draw over Illustrator. I have been using Corel Draw since 1997, and it's jsut what I am used to. I also prefer Word Perfect, been using that since the first Windows version, so I personnally dislike Word. I use more than "basic" layouts and such, and just know already how to do them in WP. Same arguement as which is beter, Macs or Windows or Linux. Whatever you started learning on you are probably going to prefer over the others.
I fel the only way one person can say "XXX is better than YYY is if they have truely given completely equal time and effort into trying both, which is very rare. Otherwise, the best you can do is say "well I prefer XXX becasue of {reasons}" To say a definate "XXX is better" with nothing to back it up IMO makes you look like a fool. You cannot learn one language from scratch, know it well, and then say you are learning another the exact same way. It is natural that you will always be in your mind comparing the way you are used to to the way you do not yet understand. It is hard.
It took me a while to switch from PERL to PHP. I know it will take me a while to learn ASP. But I'm looking forward to it, and I know to learn it at my own pace, don't try it for a project needing done becasue I will get frustrated, say screw it, and go do it in the language I already know. (I do this a lot at work with files someone else created in Illustrator. It is faster for me to go rebuild them in COrel Draw LOL)
I'm not posting this to put anyone down, this is just how I feel the siutuation is. My hope is that whenever someone comes on here new to web/programming or done it for years, try to give them backed opinions instead of just plain biased answers, and sometimes, we don't even realize they are biased. (I'm guilty too, but I try)
-Greg
JeevesBond posted this at 23:58 — 11th October 2005.
He has: 3,956 posts
Joined: Jun 2002
This is a misnomer, it is not for 13 year olds. Here's an example: This forum is based upon vBulletin - the industry standard forum software - which uses PHP/MySQL. The guys at Jelsoft are not 13, Megan is not 13, I'm not 13 and I don't think any of the other mods here are either. Please refrain from making grand sweeping statements you simply cannot qualify - tallon is here to look for guidance and the "information" you are peddling is dangerous, unprofessional and could make all of us look like fools.
What? What does this mean exactly: That you don't have a massive COM object overhead because most of the functions commonly used are built into the PHP DLL? Well that's not an advantage, it slows everything down, although you can get extra modules for PHP to extend its functionality, you could also write your own or probably (not sure on the specifics of this) get PHP to call a script in a different language, or an executable etc straight from the command line.
PHP isn't a strongly typed language, so what? The second part makes no sense, are you saying you can't change the value of a variable in PHP?
Google never used ASP, they use massive Linux clusters (some of them over 2000 PC's - imagine how much all those Windoze licenses would cost, and anyway Steve Ballmer is going to bury Google), considering the way Google works they will have written their own software to handle queries - I'd guess it's written in C/C++ since they use Linux.
Check this linkage out for a very geeky Google video to see what I mean about their setup (yeah I watched the whole thing
)
http://rakaposhi.eas.asu.edu/f02-cse494-mailarchive/msg00138.html
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bja888 (not verified) posted this at 12:23 — 12th October 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
Joined: Jan 1970
Oh, so google does not use php? Which means they use a programming language like asp does? You can't write an asp page with just asp. You need a programming language to run the asp. My personal fave is C#. I could be wrong but I think C# beats the crap out of php any day.
Now lets back up a step before you get out the nails and the cross...
) use linux hosting. So I will have to deal with php on occasion but I could never write complex software in it.
I said a few posts back, choose the environment you are most comfortable with. I gave tallen a choice, never told him to go with a specific one. Each has its over positives and negatives. Php is quick and simple and ASP teaches you a programming language. (A was actually writing a program last night with less than 6 months experience in C# and no classes or books on it) I let tallen choose his own path and I want everyone else reading this to do the same. The things I argue are things I could NOT work with. Most people I have worked with Including the job I got yesterday (finally employed
demonhale posted this at 05:47 — 11th October 2005.
He has: 3,278 posts
Joined: May 2005
Now THATS Professional!!!
Renegade posted this at 04:40 — 11th October 2005.
He has: 3,022 posts
Joined: Oct 2002
One is usually going to get biased information when asked PHP/ASP.
On that note, being a PHP person myself, I would recommend PHP.
Why is PHP for 13 year olds? Because it is simple to use, setup and learn? To me, it just means increased productivity because you spend less time coding and setting up.
Getting ones spelling and grammar right is also another step towards the whole "professional" image.
tallon posted this at 03:44 — 11th October 2005.
They have: 75 posts
Joined: Mar 2000
Wow, you're assuming quite a bit there...
First of all, if you've read my posts above you'd realize I graduate arizona college (arizona state university) with a degree in both accounting and management next december. High School? Please.
Just learned webdesign? Who said that? In high school I taught my teacher the entire semester on webpages and photoshop (yes, at the time i had an illegal copy. I admit that). She taught me *nothing* about either. But I just learned web design huh... Oh, she also asked me to come back 3 years later to teach her class things that she couldn't. So...
I've been out of the "loop", so to speak for 4-5 years. Infact, I registered on the forums 5 years ago. Almost 6.
I'm not naive about succeeding on the web. I know it's hard work, hell... accounting is hard work. I can do it, and I can do it well. But I have to force myself to do it... other people, they go HOME TO READ ACCOUNTING BOOKS FOR FUN! I couldn't believe it when I found that out. I do better than a good majority of them at accounting too.. But *they* are the ones who made the right decision on a career. I went with something I shouldn't have. I'm just correcting that. It will be a hell of a lot of work to do well owning a business designing/developing websites. Especially getting to that professional level. I also have 2-3 years before I can even think of doing it, as I first have to graduate and get some other things going (as I explained above). If I'm ready by then... great. If not, I'll keep at it. I tend to learn quite fast when I'm actually interested in what I'm doing.
<-- 22 yrs old and married. Not a 13 year old kid trying to "get rich quick" or anything else.
Oh, and in all seriousness... good luck on your interview.
-tallon
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 05:08 — 11th October 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
Joined: Jan 1970
Sorry about that, I remember now. I don't know what I was thinking when I posted that. Sorry, most people who have < 100 posts don't know much about web design. I was kinda curious about the registered date.
Megan posted this at 13:59 — 12th October 2005.
She has: 11,421 posts
Joined: Jun 1999
This is absolute bullshit. By that logic I must know everything there is to know! Um, no. Just because someone is new here or hasn't posted much doesn't mean they don't have skills or knowlege. Quite the opposite in many cases.
Megan
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bja888 (not verified) posted this at 17:05 — 12th October 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
Joined: Jan 1970
I already apologised onece, tour going to make me do it again? I assumed he diden't know much about html (ect.) and I was wrong. I don't even read the posts asking how (for example) center text useing css. There are alot of newcomers need real basic help. Thus the reason why they join. Onece again... I was wrong in this case. Sorry again...
tallon posted this at 05:17 — 11th October 2005.
They have: 75 posts
Joined: Mar 2000
Thanks for being man enough to apologize.
No harm done.
-tallon
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 02:20 — 11th October 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
Joined: Jan 1970
You gotta crawl before you walk. You just learned web deign and want to be a web design professional right out of college (or high school?). Here is a little info that might scare you a little...
I have been doing web design for 5 whole years and I'm working on #6. I am only 19 years old. I am proficient in html (not xhtml), css and JavaScript. I also am good at ASP, flash, xml and C#. I know most (if not all) of do's and dont's of the web.
I have been looking for a job for the past 6 months, I went to many interviews and still unable to find a suitable job. I am possibly getting an assistant tomorrow (depending on how the interview goes).
Also I made a attempt at a internet based business, I haven’t given up yet but it has been up for a month now without a single sale. I just don't have time to fix its flaws right now. http://www.optimalsource.biz
I wish it is as easy as you make it sound...
tallon posted this at 01:24 — 11th October 2005.
They have: 75 posts
Joined: Mar 2000
Ok, let me get this straight...
You don't like php because it has less "professionalism" to it? If that's the only difference, besides ASP being (i'm assuming here) harder to learn... then PHP wins out.
Anyway, thx for the replies.
And as for what I plan to do... Once I graduate, me and a friend are starting a business. We're getting another friend to be the main manager, as he's knows the field very well, though I know all of it almost as well.
After we get it off the ground and stable, say a year or so, me and my partner will be able to be more "hands off" with the business and let the other person do most of the day-to-day managing. So we'll be free to do other things.
At most, I'll have to spend 2-4 hours a day with the business. (this is a rough estimate based on another business like what we are going in to. We know the owner...)
So... the rest of the time I would like to use to create webpages. I wouldn't go work for someone else, I don't like being under other people.
. I want to create a small web design company to keep me busy and generate some cash on the side. I don't mind if we don't get *huge*, but I also want to be as good as I can be. (I never accept any less).
So there you have it. If you think it can't be done... hey, let me know. LoL.
So the plan is staying stable with php/mysql/xhtml/css/photoshop.
-tallon
demonhale posted this at 14:47 — 10th October 2005.
He has: 3,278 posts
Joined: May 2005
youll naturally evolve to php anyways, php and html together works like a charm...
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 14:07 — 10th October 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
Joined: Jan 1970
40,000/year minimum is the figure I keep seeing. Good luck on your journey to "mastering" php.
By the way "php" and "high-end professional" don't mix. I don't know any big businesses that use php or if they are any at all. I said it once and I'll say it again... php is for 13 year olds.
Another note, designing pays more than programming.
Busy posted this at 21:12 — 10th October 2005.
He has: 6,151 posts
Joined: May 2001
Umm didn't yahoo and google etc move over to PHP/MYSQL after the last Microsoft attack ?
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 22:03 — 10th October 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
Joined: Jan 1970
I though designers got more, I don't have any proof so JeevesBond is probably right.
In regards to php vs. asp. Everything in php is a top level function. Meaning its simple you just tell it what you want it to do and it does it. Not much room for being specific or customizing it. Where as asp uses a specific data type and allows you to add/modify it before the action is carried out.
Its like a child’s room... Do you want everything right there on the floor? Or do you want it all organized into specific spots? The really have mostly the same functionality but its mostly the level of professionalism when writing the code.
There is one more slight proublem with ASP that will eather help you make you angry. ASP is not a self-contained language. So you have to learn another language to run it. Large list, each languge has its own features. JScript, VisualBasic, C++ or C#.
Sure! They just pushed the php butten and all their asp was suddenly running in php!
I really don't see any diffrence between all the SQL programms so I don't have anything for or agienst them.
tallon posted this at 03:29 — 10th October 2005.
They have: 75 posts
Joined: Mar 2000
You guys say the amateur's are undercutting the pro's...
Well, I'm at a critical time in my life right now. I could continue in what I"m planning on doing... *mastering* php, MySQL, xhtml, and some things like photoshop. Also wanting to learn design theory/color theory if I can find info on that.
Or, I could do anything else. Hell... I graduate from college in a year with a degree in management and accounting. I don't want to manage a huge store or anything, and accounting (sadly, found this out too late) bores the hell out of me. But I could do it.
So I have a question...
How much would the "average" proffesional make annually? How about a high-end proffesional? (I don't want to be anything below average, and I certainly want to be above that.) It's a lot of hard work to be a professional. I know of one guy who said he makes a minimum of 200 dollars an hour. However, that was a few years ago and he was (still is) very good. Was he just an exception?
Thx...
Oh, and for the topic at hand... ya, I see a problem with it. A parallel I can relate it too... You heard of miniature games? IE: Warhammer 40k. Go search on ebay for painted models, there are TONS who say "pro-painted" or something to that effect in the title. When you go... it's absolutely amateur. It's to the point where some of the pro's that I know (that can sell a single painted miniature for over 250 bucks) purposely don't put pro in their name. It's not undercutting them (hey, you know the quality you're getting by the pictures), but it puts a bad image out there of what a "pro" is.
And the simple fact that an amateur is trying to pass himself off as pro...
-tallon
tallon posted this at 20:13 — 10th October 2005.
They have: 75 posts
Joined: Mar 2000
bja, mind expanding on why PHP is "for 13 year old kids"? If it's so bad, what *is* good and worthy of hard study.
How much would you say a designer would get?
-tallon
JeevesBond posted this at 21:25 — 10th October 2005.
He has: 3,956 posts
Joined: Jun 2002
He doesn't know what he's talking about. Designers get paid much less than programmers would (generally speaking). More (and better) jobs in programming too. You can go to sites like salary.com to find out how much professionals would make in your area. Combining your background in management with web programming could be very successful.
As for php - no time to elaborate on that but bja is full of **** on that one too.
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bja888 (not verified) posted this at 17:12 — 6th October 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
Joined: Jan 1970
?
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 16:26 — 6th October 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
Joined: Jan 1970
The only web design teacher I had knew enough about html and computers but I had to teach her the new stuff like CSS. I think I should start looking for a a web consulting job. Sounds easy...
edit: Love the story megan. I got pissed off my first day of web publishing... I would of thrown a fit in that class. The second he said "you dont need to learn html" I would of walked out.
Megan posted this at 15:35 — 6th October 2005.
She has: 11,421 posts
Joined: Jun 1999
I have a similar experience with education - that's a whole other monster, unfortunately! It's unbelievable how many unqualified people are actually teaching others their garbage techniques. I guess this goes back to the thread in Webmasetr's Corner on goals and how we can work to change that.
A lot of educational programs also seem to concentrate on teaching the software rather than actual design techniques..
Megan
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timjpriebe posted this at 15:56 — 6th October 2005.
He has: 2,667 posts
Joined: Dec 2004
I think that's understandable, though. When you buy programming software, it doesn't tell you how to be a good programmer. It assumes you learned that somewhere.
Well, actually it just doesn't care. But you get the idea.
EDIT: I just reread your quote and realized you said "educational programs." I thought you were talking about what came with the software. I think you're correct after all.
Tim
http://www.tandswebdesign.com
Busy posted this at 11:00 — 6th October 2005.
He has: 6,151 posts
Joined: May 2001
I am doing my bit for the education side of things, I usually block all intrusive linking to my html site as I do follow the logs for bots etc, I have allowed at least 3 schools to keep linking to my site as they suggest my site (and a couple of others) in their exams. Crazy if you ask me, but hey if it helps ... (must update the site one day as is a bit out dated).
Btw this has not been some shamless self promotion, just some useless information
Roo posted this at 08:29 — 6th October 2005.
She has: 840 posts
Joined: Apr 1999
The words 'Word' and 'HTML Editor' should not be used in the same sentence. They just aint compatible in the same sentence!
demonhale posted this at 05:54 — 6th October 2005.
He has: 3,278 posts
Joined: May 2005
sense of humor dude...
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 05:45 — 6th October 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
Joined: Jan 1970
Why is word the default html editor? I have always wonderd that...
Well I am about 20 or so days till I go broke and have to sell my car. Because these other people are far better than me at web design. (Still got a since of humor)
Greg K posted this at 03:55 — 6th October 2005.
He has: 2,145 posts
Joined: Nov 2003
Got an experience even worse.
Someone I did a website for his father, asked me if I could help his girlfriend with a class she was taking. She was an education major, and the class was to teach them how to make web sites, so as a teacher they could have a web page with information for their students.
I enjoy that, and enjoyed hanging out with them, so I said sure. Get into it, there were about 10 projects. One of them used Front Page. <--- THAT IS THE GOOD SIDE of the story. The other nine used MS Word, Excel, and GASP, Publisher! I kid you not!! They were even told how nice word is becasue you can put in large pictures and just drag them to the size you want. (and does anyone else share my pet peeve about webpages with "clip art"? I mean come on, has the "clip art makers" been in a time freeze since 1995 or what?)
And as for the page publisher made... it was ONE LARGE IMAGE (text and all) with an image map for all the links.
Sad sad sad. TO be honest, if i had a business and had to hire a programmer or web person, I think I would take someone without a degree first. (now specialized certification, may be a different story, but that costs an arm and a leg, and I see why)
-Greg
demonhale posted this at 01:31 — 6th October 2005.
He has: 3,278 posts
Joined: May 2005
Yeah and thats my point too, thats why I advocate standards, BTW I teach basic html too, some CSS these to secondary school students, I even tried to tied up with schools to teach the knowledge about the internet, not for them to think Local but Global as well... Marginalized societies tend to put themselves down, so I want to instill to them a different mindset... First and foremost also I was from print media, I can make great digital images as well as by hand... Then as I said before I tried to use the net as a medium which lead me to learning about all the coding and stuff, evolving as time goes by, still I edit codes by hand, but then I still use images and graphics that are well spliced up, I learned the hard way to like most of you, but the point is, what difference are you going to be in the industry? Whats the purpose? Yes Money, I need that too, but first and foremost I love what I do, Ill keep doing it, keep learning, and advocate standards,...
Roo posted this at 00:17 — 6th October 2005.
She has: 840 posts
Joined: Apr 1999
As a professional...I have a gripe...
A friend of mine just finished 'design school' i.e..print and web. First off they basically taught how to use programs, Illustrator, Photoshop, and Quark.
Her instructer who taught 'web design' spoke these words:
"You MUST do websites in Photoshop. If anyone uses Dreamweaver you'll fail." All she was taught was to slice up an image in Photoshop..that's it. Nothing about code, nothing about standards. Sites these people are putting out are nothing more than big images sliced up.
Fortuatly, she did part of her internship with me, and I got her started with hand coding to standards with XHTML and CSS.
On the print side, she was not taught theory...simply how to use software.
It makes me really angry that schools get away with teaching wrong.
Roo
demonhale posted this at 14:00 — 5th October 2005.
He has: 3,278 posts
Joined: May 2005
He was busy using frontpage to make webpages... Anyways... whatever you use as a development platform it still depends wether your earning ethically or earning in unethical ways, like the real point of this thread, for example I could earn loads of cash by generating a bunch of porn sites and so on, but then I chose not to because of ethical reasons...
sercee posted this at 14:59 — 5th October 2005.
He has: 4 posts
Joined: Aug 2003
I earn $$ with everything I can on the Internet.. and I do not rule out porn because it's "unethical".... I had to start from scratch about 2 years agoand my need for free traffic lead me to get into adult $$, it's about 40% of my income now...
I have made millions of "ethical" dollars with Front Page and asp code I tought myself.. I have never read a book about HTML... in the past I programmed in Pascal.. like 13 years ago...
I tried Dreamwaver for 1 day... but Front Page is better becuase I can use it to manage my content and folders on my server. I dont know anything about managing databases or servers. All I know is Front Page.. and FTP
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bja888 (not verified) posted this at 16:50 — 5th October 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
Joined: Jan 1970
I am compleatly self taught in html to asp.net. The only diffrence is, I diden't start in a visual editor (i.e. Frontpage and Dreamweaver). Notepad was my editor of choice. When you create a whole website in html you gain a little understanding how it works. (All that experence went to crap when I learned xhtml)
Please don't take this personaly but I think the internet could use less of your type. It's my personal goal to to everything I can to make the quality of the internet better. I don't mind you continue on your current path. I just ask you keep tring to improve your site(s).
timjpriebe posted this at 13:07 — 5th October 2005.
He has: 2,667 posts
Joined: Dec 2004
Sercee, what if you found you could produce those same web pages faster in Dreamweaver, but it would take you a month or so to get up to speed in Dreamweaver? That's what I ended up finding out, for myself at least. The month or so is frustrating, but once I made the switch I was very glad I did.
BTW, have you really lurked for two years without posting. That's a long time!
Tim
http://www.tandswebdesign.com
sercee posted this at 15:06 — 5th October 2005.
He has: 4 posts
Joined: Aug 2003
Yeah.. I was also surprised to see that I had not post before..
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sercee posted this at 00:04 — 5th October 2005.
He has: 4 posts
Joined: Aug 2003
I would not call myself an amateur webmaster... but maybe you would because I only use front page and a little asp, and my web sites are always very simple, but my users like it.. and I have been able to single handly make millions of dollars online since 2000 using only front page....
I have never tried any other program, and have no interest to do so
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bja888 (not verified) posted this at 06:21 — 27th September 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
Joined: Jan 1970
You sound like you are learning. Good for you! Myabe one day you will have to start selling your personal posessions because some amature too your job. Just like me
Mikel108 posted this at 07:08 — 27th September 2005.
They have: 1 posts
Joined: Sep 2005
LOL. Actually this is the only site I plan on doing, and only because the other option was to let them shut it down. Like I said before not enough money for a pro.
BTW I make auto parts, and I cannot live on $3 a day like where my job is going to. So I do feel your pain. However this is no different than mechanics, plumbers, carpenters ect that see hacks offer to do work for almost nothing, and then the customer wonders why it was not done right.
After trying my hand at web site building, I can tell you that I have a lot of respect for the work that goes into this. I can certainly tell a professional site right away now.
Best Regards,
Mikel108
Greg K posted this at 17:52 — 26th September 2005.
He has: 2,145 posts
Joined: Nov 2003
One note, you may want to get started on creating your own banner from scratch. If it was done by the "pro" and he did refuse to give rights to use it, then there is potential legal issues.
If i need to mdofiy anything that was maintained by someone else, I try to convert it to all original material.
-Greg
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 15:28 — 26th September 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
Joined: Jan 1970
I don't want to sound crule even though I will proubally come off that way but... when you say
functional to you is proubaly not functional to the rest of the professional commnuity. There are soo many factors that go into each layout/design/page/line. For you purpose it is proubally acceptable though.
There is more to a website than just making it look good. I've gotten banned from some fourms because I insulted their website. When the file size of the page is larger than if you just make it all a image you have a proublem.
Mikel108 posted this at 16:26 — 26th September 2005.
They have: 1 posts
Joined: Sep 2005
Hi,
Your right on one thing. I left the main banner as a bitmap by mistake and it loads at a whopping 295kb. Its functional because things do not change rapidly for us. The forms are embedded and they are donation and membership forms. Then I list the board. I would list the URL but it is a political party site and most forums do not like this kind of stuff. I can tell you that a rework is already in process from the things I learned here.
Best Regards,
Mikel
Megan posted this at 13:16 — 26th September 2005.
She has: 11,421 posts
Joined: Jun 1999
And this is quite different from actually sellling your serivices. If someone was paying you significants of money to do that. Nothing wrong with being an amateur at all! Just something wrong with amateurs passing themselves off as professionals.
Do introduce yourself, and let me know where in SW Ontario you're from!
Megan
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JeevesBond posted this at 12:04 — 26th September 2005.
He has: 3,956 posts
Joined: Jun 2002
Welcome to the forums Mike :wave:
I agree with you, what I disagree with is the passing-off of amateur work as professional.
If you're saying to your customer something like: "I'm an amateur, but I might be able to help you out." Then that's fine.
By the way, you can say hello "officially" in the Introductions Forum. Pop over there and tell us a bit about yourself
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demonhale posted this at 03:16 — 19th September 2005.
He has: 3,278 posts
Joined: May 2005
The point is bjaa is that I suggest he needs to hire a developer if he wants one, but if his bad at designs but would like to learn layouting a site for his needs then he could use a template as he suggested himself...
demonhale posted this at 13:25 — 18th September 2005.
He has: 3,278 posts
Joined: May 2005
The best example of an artsy site I might say is CSS zen garden... But as one person said, even sometimes we can make mistakes like making sites just because we can, not because we need it... Templates from template farms is good for you if you really dont need to hire a developer and want to code the template over to translate it to the web...
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 19:27 — 18th September 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
Joined: Jan 1970
Have you ever bought a tempate? It's the most 1/2 a** piece of sh** excuse for web design I have ever seen. My personal openion... Hire a pro or buy from a respectable site like mine (http://www.optimalsource.biz) Stay away from main stream template sites.
locatepeople posted this at 11:55 — 18th September 2005.
He has: 377 posts
Joined: May 2005
I'm good at coding and producing websites to a general "Ok" level. What I need to take the next step is more php, perl knowledge and the ability to really design good looking sites. No idea how you produce websites that are abit more "artsy".
i.e. rspca.org.uk
To be honest using professionally designed templates and modifying them slightly seems okay to me.
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