Those big corproate sites are way behind when it comes to standards. They seem to need convincing that it's worth the effort, which is unfortunate. Web standards are sort of like a building code - you don't want to work with someone who isn't following it. The problem with those big corproate sites is that they started before standards were really widely used and their sites haven't fallen down (yet) so they don't bother doing things properly.
w3 (or w3c).org is validation guidelines for web standards.
When you validate a site you may get many errors but the errors can be downline errors caused by the first couple of errors, example if you miss an end tag it will use the next end tag and thus cause several errors because it has used another end tag.
I personally have a problem with sites like elance because a good professional is sure to get outbid by a cheap amateur. I do good quality work, I know what I'm worth, and I don't do work for "cheap". Most professionals will have overhead costs that amateurs don't.
A ways to tell professionals from amateurs:
Conduct ain interview (in person, if possible). You can tell a lot by the way people speak and handle themselves in a meeting. You'll want to get an overview of their understanding of the work you need to have done. An amateur will generally think in very narrow terms (i.e. programming is about writing the code, design is about making it look good). You want someone who can make a product that works for your business and can demonstrate that with examples from their portfolio.
Look at their websites (especially personal websites). You don't want to work with someone who does not have a professional image on the web. Google them and/or any screen names they go by (if you can find that out).
Go here: http://validator.w3.org/ and enter the URL of their website(s), There should be few (preferably no) errors.
Ask for a CV/Resume and references.
Be wary of community certificate programs or "ITT Tech" type certificates. These are generally of low quality.
Upon reading above, Its a good idea to recompile the whole thread, and point at those we all agree in...
For Mine:
Professionalism - should be there as a professional, either the way you deal with people, or the way you give your best in the way you do and accept criticisms as challenges and hurdle them by learning as much as you could, and never stop learning about the newer things.
Aptitude - you do what you advertise, you are best at what your skill-set is based on, you do research, you do nitty gritty stuff to stay in shape for your customers, never rely on your assistants to do job and communication for you.
EQ (Emotional Quotient) - The way you handle things, pressure, deadlines, and your reactions to problems posed to you, how you analyze and react to the situation, how fast and precise you get things done without getting either too annoyed to do nothing...
timjpriebe posted this at 15:01 — 14th December 2005.
Expernce - they should know how a each browser should react to diffrent elements.
Proublem solveing - They should know what type of technology to use when, and of corse why use it.
I am knew to this, what does the http://validator.w3.org/ site actually tell you? I ran a few URLs of some major corporations and many of them came up with errors in the double digits.
mrp8ntball posted this at 21:29 — 6th January 2006.
I think the reason a lot of "amateurs" get by web designing today is because they are able to produce websites that look nice and the client doesn't know any better. If it looks nice and works reasonbly they really don't know if it was produced using templates or front page. I know this is the case because I myself know very little beyond basic html and I need to hire someone soon.
So tell me. Even after looking at porfolios, how do I distinguish a professional (beyond what he tells me he can do) from an amateur that says the same and produces nice looking web pages? Where do I go to look for a professional by your standards? I have no idea where to look for this- suggestions are welcome.
Also, how do professionals feel about websites such as elance.com where projects can be bid on by deisgners/programmers. Is this a service a professional would avoid? this probably drastically contributes to the price gauging you speak of, especially when people are so eager to undercut eachother with this auction form of project acquisition.
Please chime in your opinion on the following as well as any advice on where and how to find professionals. I do not want some template using amateur for my website.
And you take that as law? I sure don't. Lets come up with our own definition! Everyone can list some qualities they think a professional have and while compile them at the end.
Here are some of mine:
High quality work. In web design this means that a site should be not only good looking, but functional and easy to use. It should also communicate the client's message effectively and encourage visitors to take the next step. Other standards of quality would vary depending on specialization (i.e. developers would have different requirements than designers)
Interest in new and emerging techniques and new developments in the field.
Concern for the clients' needs and mature attitude when communicating with clients.
Ability to earn a living practicing web design and/or development.
Ok probably my fault for putting a new spin on it, but title is Amature vs. Professional.
Whats the real meaning of a professional? from the link I mentioned (and following ones) seems none of us here are professional, seems it's a select few that think they are all god like.
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 06:22 — 13th December 2005.
hmmm if you read the threads, read from the beginning, their are good point pointed out, and it seems it has been resolved. But now its been revived from the pits of death...
One of things that makes me laugh is the so called 'professionals' web pages, several I have come across don't display well, the text is miles long and goes under ads etc so is unreadable, others have things on top of each other making it unreadable and so on.
I reckon they aren't professional, just a cult type following with the power going to their heads.
I'm all for accessibility and standards, but if it means making a site unreadable - pass, will stick to the true known methods.
They mean standards, basically. That topic was going around on all the blogs a few weeks ago.
Personally, I'm not sure whather I agree or not. I agree that it's important to use the most modern techniques in any profession. Or at least be familiar with them. But there are other important things too and I wouldn't de-classify someone as a professional for one reason alone.
bja888 wrote: Lol, If CSS + JavaScript make you a professional then I have been running strong for 3 years now
Ah, that's a logic flaw. Just because CSS+Javascript is required to be a professional, doesn't mean those automatically make you a professional. Especially in your case, bja.
I do think it's funny that he mentions "Internet Hype 2.0." I figured Jeeves would enjoy that comment.
all the links at top of article are similar, is like watching a bunch of sheep all following one another, if this is what is meant by being a professional, I'll pass thanks.
I don't think any of that is even true. Fiesty made some good points there. A site needs to serve it's purpose and a good professional will be able to do that. Passing on information is just one possible purpose for a site. If you're a professional you're probably also trying to sell something (which I think a lot of designers could use some help with!). The purpose of some websites may be to entertain people so they come back. It may be to give them regular, quality content so they come back. It may be to sell them a good product with good service so they come back. It's a key concern for almost all websites I think. For most websites; if they do their job correctly they will want to come back. They may even want to tell their friends about it.
I dont' know what those first two sentences were about. No, please, don't try to explain.
philicom made some good points about designers being able to sell their services, but I don't necessarily think that fits with the context of this conversation. We're talking about professional quality work which is independent from whether you can sell yourself or not. I think a good professional will realize what their strengths are and find a niche where they can support themselves somehow, which may mean working for another company. This is the main reason why I don't do freelance work! So, if a person produces quality work but can't sell it independently I don't think that means they're not a professional - they are, they just need to be working for a company that finds the work for them.
Weather or not the site is considerd professional is compleatly dependent on the person who is viewing it.
Weather or not the site is done by a professional depends on how many people it makes angry. If a professional does their job right it should always look flawless.
fiesty_01, the questions you posted are heading the right direction but not quite there. The objective of most websites is not to entertain someone so they come back but to pass information. For most websites; if they do their job correctly they will not need to come back.
fiesty_01 posted this at 08:58 — 14th December 2005.
bja888 wrote: Weather or not the site is considerd professional is compleatly dependent on the person who is viewing it.
Yes, what a 12-year-old finds professional-looking will be different than what a 30-year-old does.
bja888 wrote: Weather or not the site is done by a professional depends on how many people it makes angry. If a professional does their job right it should always look flawless.
That was my point. Many "professional" sites are far from flawless (blurry images, poor color combos, misspellings, poor grammar, etc.).
bja888 wrote: fiesty_01, the questions you posted are heading the right direction but not quite there. The objective of most websites is not to entertain someone so they come back but to pass information. For most websites; if they do their job correctly they will not need to come back.
I would think that an online shopping site would want their visitors to come back. Even an information-based site, such as an online news site, will likely want both repeat visitors and new visitors while hoping a few of them will click through on those advertisements that are sometimes found throughout such sites (the ones advertisers pay them to place, or the ones they place themselves as affiliates of other companies).
demonhale posted this at 09:28 — 29th November 2005.
Then Welcome Back! I dont Remember you since maybe I wasnt registered yet at that time, well anyways, a bunch of arguments has been said, but good point...
philicom posted this at 09:26 — 29th November 2005.
The main problem with the whole situation of "amature versus professional" is the market is still there, whether you are a professional or an amature alot depends on marketing skills aswell as design skills, I have seen so many professional web designers/developers go under because of lack of business initiative and have also seen so many amature's businesses thrive, it's ashame because alot of the professionals produce some of the best designs I have seen but potential clients have got to see the work we produce. Part of our job is to educate the general public of what qualifies as good design and what qualifies as bad design. If you market something correctly you could sell ice to eskimos. I could get angry until i'm blue in the face at some 16 year old web designer thats sitting in his bedroom rolling off his 15th site of the day and making a small fortune from it but at the end of the day he is in direct competition with me so i have to act positively and practically.
The bottom line is that amatures and professionals both have the same goal, to sell websites, it is up to us to prove to the potential clients that we are producing the greater work.
BTW, I use to be one of those 16yo bedroom designers, those were the days hehe.
For those who remember me from before im back my account got deleted registered under old email account, but im back now YAY!
The main problem with the whole situation of "amature versus professional" is the market is still there, whether you are a professional or an amature alot depends on marketing skills aswell as design skills
I agree. And some "professional" sites sometimes don't look too professional (blurry images, poor color combos, misspellings, etc.). I think the important things to consider are these:
1). Does the site serve its purpose well (if it does, then something must be right).
2). Do your visitors enjoy your site and keep coming back.
A lot of companys still dont use the web in it's full potential, to some it's just a online brochure, others it's a form of income.
I have spoken to a few people who have been 'scammed' by these $100 websites (5 pages in one, made in FP type deals) and had no results or bad results - once bitten ...
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 22:05 — 10th November 2005.
projectpete wrote: if people are taking jobs away from you then you must not be better for the customer.
Intresting point of view, but I think it goes slightly off topic.
Its not that I cannot give the client (or comapny) what they want. Its more along the lines of, they don't know what they need. When they just want a website and don't care whats on it (that happends a lot). Then they hire the cheepest thing they can find. When they want somthing inpressive they proublly go all flash. There is a really thin line of companys that want usefull sites. And a even larger amout of companys that need a usefull site.
timjpriebe posted this at 15:22 — 1st November 2005.
For once I have to agree with demonhale to a certain extent. Lol! I do think that it's because the tools currently support crap code, it's feasible to put out a website using sub-standard code, and I've certainly done it. It sounds terrible when you call it sub-standard, but that's literally what it is.
However, you can also cook a meal where you follow the recipe exactly. And if you're in a huge hurry, it is probably way faster to follow the recipe and not vary too much from it. But if you know why the recipe uses the ingredients it does, and how it affects it when you vary some of the ingredients, you can make a much better meal if you have a little more time.
Again, I've made my share of "fast meals" and I'm sure I will continue to, but when you can cook up something good, it tastes so much better.
You know what? when I discuss visions of clients either with their graphic or web dev needs, I always talk about the usability issues, how to make it easy for them to maintain, what kind of things they prefer and I ask a lot of input from them. After which I try to make the best output that I can muster from what they have suggested... Fairly they like what I make for them, I always explain like the way they wany their logo is not good in print but if they want it like that anyway I could proceed...
So the point anyways is like Megan has said, many web designer are not aware of the current skill they have, the main point here however is their are many things to be done in professionalism, not only you need to be good at graphics, you need to be good with coding, and you need to think of issues outside the web, like usability and standards, or even semantic markup... Then professionalism with client dealings, your promptness with deadlines, and providing the best work for clients whatever they want done.
I take pride in what I do, I spent time to learn almost everything, I sweat my arse off making everything pleasing to the clients and then someone says, hey theres a piece of software to make your lives easier, and not essential to know html and css? so your not pro standards, nor attempt to be knowledgeable for clients, it ends up being an opinion rather than a fact.
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 22:58 — 31st October 2005.
Sorry about that, I was posting before class and the professor just randomly stood up and said test.
Basically, my point is this...
Sure some people are starting to notice that a good web designer is perferd over the walmart brand web designer. Still 80% of the sites I see are no where near what they should be or just missed the mark compleatly.
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 21:04 — 31st October 2005.
I am very happy with my current client. He even thinks some of my ideas are un-nessarry. Its just every time someone IMs me with a link, every time I need to find information and every time I do research on some prouduct. The site needs work... Test g2g
Excellent article, but the relevant bit here is at the end where he talks about measuring every client request against the strategy.
Quote: Oh, and when your clients call with a brilliant idea? (such as flashy graphics or background music) Point them to the strategy and ask them how their epiphany will help achieve the objective.
Yes but I get stoned to death (rocks not drugs) every time I tell someone flash isn't always the answer. Or that their website shouldent be one big image. Or when you tell someone they don't need background music for their site.
Really, I try to make the web better. Optimal Source is a attempt at selling better website layouts. I am starting to think its all futile though...
That's a good point too - I often hear people say things about how you can't trust information on the web and how it's all spam and garbage. Not true, but when you look around at some of the sites out there you kind of have to agree with them. The web in general looks unprofessional so people believe it's unreliable. To some extent it is, but there are a lot of good on the web as well and we need to work to get it the respect it deserves
I have noticed, alot of websites for major courprations are eather 100% flash or 100% amature. Either way they are bad. The question is, how much longer must this go on before the web starts to "clean up"?
Lets face it, with the software that is available today its not essential to know any HTML or CSS to make a website because the programs do it for you. Some will even write javascript. What makes a professional site over a amateur is the way it looks, colour schemes and design. But you dont have to be that experieced to learn this, just look around the web and get and idea.
The only hard part now in web design is the backend scripting, and even now young 16yo school kids are already writing full blown applications. What the hell is wrong with a budding enthusiastic kid to charge money for a website. If the customer isn't happy he doesnt have to pay!!!!
benf wrote: Lets face it, with the software that is available today its not essential to know any HTML or CSS to make a website because the programs do it for you. Some will even write javascript. What makes a professional site over a amateur is the way it looks, colour schemes and design. But you dont have to be that experieced to learn this, just look around the web and get and idea.
I totally disagree with this. A good, professional website goes way beyond looking good. It works well for the users and it works well for the business - it accomplishes the business' goals. That's not simple or easy. True, you don't need to know a lot to make a website but you DO need to know a lot to make a GOOD one. Comments like this just trivialize what we all do and the amout of work we put into the sites we create.
And looking around the web ?!?!? There is an unbelievable amount of garbage out there. And garbage that people unforunately paid for. There are very, very few professional quality websites out there in the grand scheme of things. True, many sites don't need to be "professional" quality but many do - and aren't. No wonder they're not accomplishing their goals.
This really goes back to my last point above about not even knowing what a professional quality website is or what it means to have great skill. Zeldman has great skill. I have half decent skill. Most of the people out there selling websites have very little skill at all (but don't seem to realize it!).
Great idea demonhale, lets talk about portfolios! I am currently 230 miles away from home to visit the girl friend but I don't really have time to surf the internet. Actually, she just called and as soon as I finish this I will be away from the computer for another day.
You all have seen my portfolio (myweblounge.com) and if you haven't you really should. It's not that functional when it comes to content. It is a great framework to expand apon though.
I would not say that my portfolio is at all miss leading or a bad repersentation of my self. After all I did all of that by my self from scratch. I am compleatly responseble for 100% of the content. While other portfolios try to sell them selfs as much as possable useing what ever templates or tools they can find at their desposal.
Has anyone else seen really fake portfolios?
What do you think of them form a professional view point?
What do you think of them form a amature view point?
Do you think they would still get a job over someone like me?
Discuss, I g2g see the gf
demonhale posted this at 15:47 — 29th October 2005.
Im reviving this thread, why? coz ive been out of town lately (still am while typing this message) and I have the time to surf instead of working so I spent the time at night surfing in sites which offer web design... And guess what? basically about 80% that are having enough customers use either a template or a CMS/Blog for their own site... the rest custom made their site... Also I noticed that some designers (as they claim to be) as I visited their portfolios have a so and so graphic skill and still maybe the customer cant distinguish between an A+ work with a B+ ...
Intreresting points. I think, however, that what we're getting at here is all the people out there who are selling web design without a competient skill set. The problem with Bob (designer C) is that he doesn't realize that his skillset isn't up to par. He may or may not have a lot of experience - he definitely doesn't have an eye for design or a reasonable level of ability in any aspect of design or development. He is trying to sell web design to clients who don't know enough to recognize his low ability level.
There seems to be a wide variation in what people qualify as "competent". I don't know why but some "designers" just don't seem to realize thet they're not qualified to sell web design. They seem to think they're doing a great job when in reality their work is not even close to being at a professional level. There are a lot of people out there who think they are Suzy but are really Bob. (Or, even worse, they know that they are Bob but recognize that the unsuspecting public can be duped into hiring them).
I looked "professional" up in the dictionary and came up with two relevant meanings:
Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.
The problem we have in web design (and this is found in many other fields as well) is that people may be "professional" by definition 1 but not by definition 2. Definition 2 is the key to professionalism in this context but people don't seem to realize a) how important it is and b) what it even means to have great skill.
Megan wrote: The problem we have in web design (and this is found in many other fields as well) is that people may be "professional" by definition 1 but not by definition 2. Definition 2 is the key to professionalism in this context but people don't seem to realize a) how important it is and b) what it even means to have great skill.
Definition of professionalism is:
Professional status, methods, character, or standards.
also:
the expertness characteristic of a professional person
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 16:43 — 13th October 2005.
Ok, now that we have a good definition of a "professional". The question that keeps me up at night is...
Can Bob (mythical designer #C) take either Joe's or Suzy's job if he knows the boss or someone of high rank. (Or maybe having sexual relations with them)
Bob got a masters degree in English and has been working with company #Q (Wait, what letter are we on?) for 2 years now. The day that company #Q decides it needs to be on the internet Bob mentions that he has been using Dreamweaver for the 5 months and clams he is "Good at it". He also tells boss (#W) he has maintained a website in his spare time (A geocities site or something).
Will company #Q care or know the difference between [Bob] or [Joe and Suzy]? If yes, then is the company willing to spend in order to have the obviously better people?
timjpriebe posted this at 12:21 — 13th October 2005.
Here's the opinion I've formulated while pondering this topic since this thread was first posted.
There is some blurry line out there that distinguishes professionals from amateurs. Not only is this line blurry, but it's somewhat different for each person. I might consider someone a professional, but you might consider them an amateur.
The position of that line is based primarily on two things: Level of skills and level of conduct. Someone can be much stronger in one than another and still be considered a professional by many.
Let's talk about two mythical web designers. Joe and Suzy Web design web pages for people. They gets paid for it. They makes a living from it. So far, we don't know enough about Joe and Suzy to decide if we would consider them professionals.
Joe is a people person. He's great at communicating. He is able to figure out exactly what a customer's wants and needs are, and the customer knows that he understands. Joe's actual design skills, while not great, are competent.
Suzy, on the other hand, is a fantastic designer. She feels more at home working on the computer than she does interacting with customers. While she is uncomfortable meeting with clients, she knows that it is necessary, and still acts very polite and tries to communicate well with clients.
Who is the more professional? If you were just looking at portfolios, you might say Suzy. If you were to meet with both designers, you might say Joe. But if both of them have an appropriate amount of skills in both areas, they're both professionals. The difference of opinion generally comes in what is an appropriate amount of skills.
If you're lucky, you get one person who's great in both. Or one design firm that both Suzy and Joe work at. My business tends to be the latter. I'm Joe, and my partner is Suzy. Well, really I'm Tim and my partner is Steve, but I think you get the idea.
I didnt prefer one over the other, They are just tools for different needs like I can use a warhammer for punching nails but then a regular hammer would do the trick, it generally would be overkill I might say...
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 02:19 — 13th October 2005.
Wow someone who uses ASP but perfers php? I had no idea that existed. Well, I am glad I was introduced to ASP first. It allowed me to smoothly transition into programming. I'm writing a program to keep track of my hours.
I'm glad this convo got back on the right trach though. I think the whole "job-less" thing put me in a bad mood the past few months.
demonhale posted this at 01:06 — 13th October 2005.
Depends on what I want to use it for bja, to me it would quite be easier for Active Server Pages coz of my C programming background, in relation however I get the hang of PHP quite a bit, for DB apps I like PHP and MySQL combo, but then Im starting to be a bit of a fan of the PHP flatfile combo too...
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Megan posted this at 17:14 — 29th January 2006.
She has: 11,421 posts
Joined: Jun 1999
Those big corproate sites are way behind when it comes to standards. They seem to need convincing that it's worth the effort, which is unfortunate. Web standards are sort of like a building code - you don't want to work with someone who isn't following it. The problem with those big corproate sites is that they started before standards were really widely used and their sites haven't fallen down (yet) so they don't bother doing things properly.
Megan
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Busy posted this at 08:49 — 29th January 2006.
He has: 6,151 posts
Joined: May 2001
w3 (or w3c).org is validation guidelines for web standards.
When you validate a site you may get many errors but the errors can be downline errors caused by the first couple of errors, example if you miss an end tag it will use the next end tag and thus cause several errors because it has used another end tag.
Megan posted this at 21:50 — 6th January 2006.
She has: 11,421 posts
Joined: Jun 1999
I personally have a problem with sites like elance because a good professional is sure to get outbid by a cheap amateur. I do good quality work, I know what I'm worth, and I don't do work for "cheap". Most professionals will have overhead costs that amateurs don't.
A ways to tell professionals from amateurs:
I'm sure I'll think of more later...
Megan
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demonhale posted this at 15:01 — 14th December 2005.
He has: 3,278 posts
Joined: May 2005
Upon reading above, Its a good idea to recompile the whole thread, and point at those we all agree in...
For Mine:
Professionalism - should be there as a professional, either the way you deal with people, or the way you give your best in the way you do and accept criticisms as challenges and hurdle them by learning as much as you could, and never stop learning about the newer things.
Aptitude - you do what you advertise, you are best at what your skill-set is based on, you do research, you do nitty gritty stuff to stay in shape for your customers, never rely on your assistants to do job and communication for you.
EQ (Emotional Quotient) - The way you handle things, pressure, deadlines, and your reactions to problems posed to you, how you analyze and react to the situation, how fast and precise you get things done without getting either too annoyed to do nothing...
timjpriebe posted this at 15:01 — 14th December 2005.
He has: 2,667 posts
Joined: Dec 2004
Megan's right. I think there are very few websites that hope you only visit them once.
Megan posted this at 14:46 — 14th December 2005.
She has: 11,421 posts
Joined: Jun 1999
Even then, you'd hope that people like your information enough to come back again when they need to know something else.
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 13:22 — 14th December 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
Joined: Jan 1970
I was thinking along the lines of a infirmation based website.
timjpriebe posted this at 18:40 — 13th December 2005.
He has: 2,667 posts
Joined: Dec 2004
Splling - They should us prioper spleling when tpying emals and suchk.
fiesty_01 posted this at 09:02 — 14th December 2005.
He has: 173 posts
Joined: Nov 2002
Definitely.
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 18:37 — 13th December 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
Joined: Jan 1970
Expernce - they should know how a each browser should react to diffrent elements.
Proublem solveing - They should know what type of technology to use when, and of corse why use it.
cigam posted this at 02:43 — 29th January 2006.
They have: 2 posts
Joined: Jan 2006
I am knew to this, what does the http://validator.w3.org/ site actually tell you? I ran a few URLs of some major corporations and many of them came up with errors in the double digits.
mrp8ntball posted this at 21:29 — 6th January 2006.
They have: 11 posts
Joined: Jan 2006
I think this is appropriate to post here.
I think the reason a lot of "amateurs" get by web designing today is because they are able to produce websites that look nice and the client doesn't know any better. If it looks nice and works reasonbly they really don't know if it was produced using templates or front page. I know this is the case because I myself know very little beyond basic html and I need to hire someone soon.
So tell me. Even after looking at porfolios, how do I distinguish a professional (beyond what he tells me he can do) from an amateur that says the same and produces nice looking web pages? Where do I go to look for a professional by your standards? I have no idea where to look for this- suggestions are welcome.
Also, how do professionals feel about websites such as elance.com where projects can be bid on by deisgners/programmers. Is this a service a professional would avoid? this probably drastically contributes to the price gauging you speak of, especially when people are so eager to undercut eachother with this auction form of project acquisition.
Please chime in your opinion on the following as well as any advice on where and how to find professionals. I do not want some template using amateur for my website.
Megan posted this at 14:27 — 13th December 2005.
She has: 11,421 posts
Joined: Jun 1999
And you take that as law? I sure don't. Lets come up with our own definition! Everyone can list some qualities they think a professional have and while compile them at the end.
Here are some of mine:
Megan
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Busy posted this at 09:45 — 13th December 2005.
He has: 6,151 posts
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Ok probably my fault for putting a new spin on it, but title is Amature vs. Professional.
Whats the real meaning of a professional? from the link I mentioned (and following ones) seems none of us here are professional, seems it's a select few that think they are all god like.
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 06:22 — 13th December 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
Joined: Jan 1970
This is my thread!! I dought the people who revive it read the entire thing any way.
demonhale posted this at 05:26 — 13th December 2005.
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hmmm if you read the threads, read from the beginning, their are good point pointed out, and it seems it has been resolved. But now its been revived from the pits of death...
Busy posted this at 20:07 — 12th December 2005.
He has: 6,151 posts
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One of things that makes me laugh is the so called 'professionals' web pages, several I have come across don't display well, the text is miles long and goes under ads etc so is unreadable, others have things on top of each other making it unreadable and so on.
I reckon they aren't professional, just a cult type following with the power going to their heads.
I'm all for accessibility and standards, but if it means making a site unreadable - pass, will stick to the true known methods.
Megan posted this at 14:44 — 12th December 2005.
She has: 11,421 posts
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They mean standards, basically. That topic was going around on all the blogs a few weeks ago.
Personally, I'm not sure whather I agree or not. I agree that it's important to use the most modern techniques in any profession. Or at least be familiar with them. But there are other important things too and I wouldn't de-classify someone as a professional for one reason alone.
Megan
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bja888 (not verified) posted this at 09:17 — 12th December 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
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Lol, If CSS + JavaScript make you a professional then I have been running strong for 3 years now
timjpriebe posted this at 15:17 — 12th December 2005.
He has: 2,667 posts
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Ah, that's a logic flaw. Just because CSS+Javascript is required to be a professional, doesn't mean those automatically make you a professional. Especially in your case, bja.
I do think it's funny that he mentions "Internet Hype 2.0." I figured Jeeves would enjoy that comment.
Tim
http://www.tandswebdesign.com
Busy posted this at 07:33 — 12th December 2005.
He has: 6,151 posts
Joined: May 2001
Came across this article, makes me laugh
http://www.quirksmode.org/index.html?/blog/archives/2005/11/the_new_amateur.html
all the links at top of article are similar, is like watching a bunch of sheep all following one another, if this is what is meant by being a professional, I'll pass thanks.
Megan posted this at 15:45 — 11th December 2005.
She has: 11,421 posts
Joined: Jun 1999
I don't think any of that is even true. Fiesty made some good points there. A site needs to serve it's purpose and a good professional will be able to do that. Passing on information is just one possible purpose for a site. If you're a professional you're probably also trying to sell something (which I think a lot of designers could use some help with!). The purpose of some websites may be to entertain people so they come back. It may be to give them regular, quality content so they come back. It may be to sell them a good product with good service so they come back. It's a key concern for almost all websites I think. For most websites; if they do their job correctly they will want to come back. They may even want to tell their friends about it.
I dont' know what those first two sentences were about.
No, please, don't try to explain.
philicom made some good points about designers being able to sell their services, but I don't necessarily think that fits with the context of this conversation. We're talking about professional quality work which is independent from whether you can sell yourself or not. I think a good professional will realize what their strengths are and find a niche where they can support themselves somehow, which may mean working for another company. This is the main reason why I don't do freelance work! So, if a person produces quality work but can't sell it independently I don't think that means they're not a professional - they are, they just need to be working for a company that finds the work for them.
Megan
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bja888 (not verified) posted this at 06:00 — 11th December 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
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Weather or not the site is considerd professional is compleatly dependent on the person who is viewing it.
Weather or not the site is done by a professional depends on how many people it makes angry. If a professional does their job right it should always look flawless.
fiesty_01, the questions you posted are heading the right direction but not quite there. The objective of most websites is not to entertain someone so they come back but to pass information. For most websites; if they do their job correctly they will not need to come back.
fiesty_01 posted this at 08:58 — 14th December 2005.
He has: 173 posts
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Yes, what a 12-year-old finds professional-looking will be different than what a 30-year-old does.
That was my point. Many "professional" sites are far from flawless (blurry images, poor color combos, misspellings, poor grammar, etc.).
I would think that an online shopping site would want their visitors to come back. Even an information-based site, such as an online news site, will likely want both repeat visitors and new visitors while hoping a few of them will click through on those advertisements that are sometimes found throughout such sites (the ones advertisers pay them to place, or the ones they place themselves as affiliates of other companies).
demonhale posted this at 09:28 — 29th November 2005.
He has: 3,278 posts
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Then Welcome Back! I dont Remember you since maybe I wasnt registered yet at that time, well anyways, a bunch of arguments has been said, but good point...
philicom posted this at 09:26 — 29th November 2005.
He has: 2 posts
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Hi all,
The main problem with the whole situation of "amature versus professional" is the market is still there, whether you are a professional or an amature alot depends on marketing skills aswell as design skills, I have seen so many professional web designers/developers go under because of lack of business initiative and have also seen so many amature's businesses thrive, it's ashame because alot of the professionals produce some of the best designs I have seen but potential clients have got to see the work we produce. Part of our job is to educate the general public of what qualifies as good design and what qualifies as bad design. If you market something correctly you could sell ice to eskimos. I could get angry until i'm blue in the face at some 16 year old web designer thats sitting in his bedroom rolling off his 15th site of the day and making a small fortune from it but at the end of the day he is in direct competition with me so i have to act positively and practically.
The bottom line is that amatures and professionals both have the same goal, to sell websites, it is up to us to prove to the potential clients that we are producing the greater work.
BTW, I use to be one of those 16yo bedroom designers, those were the days hehe.
For those who remember me from before im back my account got deleted
registered under old email account, but im back now YAY!
<<<<<<<<<<Not Another Blog>>>>>>>>>>
fiesty_01 posted this at 09:16 — 10th December 2005.
He has: 173 posts
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I agree. And some "professional" sites sometimes don't look too professional (blurry images, poor color combos, misspellings, etc.). I think the important things to consider are these:
1). Does the site serve its purpose well (if it does, then something must be right).
2). Do your visitors enjoy your site and keep coming back.
Busy posted this at 22:19 — 10th November 2005.
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A lot of companys still dont use the web in it's full potential, to some it's just a online brochure, others it's a form of income.
I have spoken to a few people who have been 'scammed' by these $100 websites (5 pages in one, made in FP type deals) and had no results or bad results - once bitten ...
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 22:05 — 10th November 2005.
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Either way the argument still stands.
projectpete posted this at 19:10 — 10th November 2005.
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i didnt mean you personally, i was just using the word "you" to generalize
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 19:04 — 10th November 2005.
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Hurrry! My thread has been revived!!!
Intresting point of view, but I think it goes slightly off topic.
Its not that I cannot give the client (or comapny) what they want. Its more along the lines of, they don't know what they need. When they just want a website and don't care whats on it (that happends a lot). Then they hire the cheepest thing they can find. When they want somthing inpressive they proublly go all flash. There is a really thin line of companys that want usefull sites. And a even larger amout of companys that need a usefull site.
timjpriebe posted this at 15:22 — 1st November 2005.
He has: 2,667 posts
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For once I have to agree with demonhale to a certain extent. Lol! I do think that it's because the tools currently support crap code, it's feasible to put out a website using sub-standard code, and I've certainly done it. It sounds terrible when you call it sub-standard, but that's literally what it is.
However, you can also cook a meal where you follow the recipe exactly. And if you're in a huge hurry, it is probably way faster to follow the recipe and not vary too much from it. But if you know why the recipe uses the ingredients it does, and how it affects it when you vary some of the ingredients, you can make a much better meal if you have a little more time.
Again, I've made my share of "fast meals" and I'm sure I will continue to, but when you can cook up something good, it tastes so much better.
Metaphors can be quite silly, BTW.
Tim
http://www.tandswebdesign.com
demonhale posted this at 02:13 — 1st November 2005.
He has: 3,278 posts
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You know what? when I discuss visions of clients either with their graphic or web dev needs, I always talk about the usability issues, how to make it easy for them to maintain, what kind of things they prefer and I ask a lot of input from them. After which I try to make the best output that I can muster from what they have suggested... Fairly they like what I make for them, I always explain like the way they wany their logo is not good in print but if they want it like that anyway I could proceed...
So the point anyways is like Megan has said, many web designer are not aware of the current skill they have, the main point here however is their are many things to be done in professionalism, not only you need to be good at graphics, you need to be good with coding, and you need to think of issues outside the web, like usability and standards, or even semantic markup... Then professionalism with client dealings, your promptness with deadlines, and providing the best work for clients whatever they want done.
I take pride in what I do, I spent time to learn almost everything, I sweat my arse off making everything pleasing to the clients and then someone says, hey theres a piece of software to make your lives easier, and not essential to know html and css? so your not pro standards, nor attempt to be knowledgeable for clients, it ends up being an opinion rather than a fact.
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 22:58 — 31st October 2005.
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Sorry about that, I was posting before class and the professor just randomly stood up and said test.
Basically, my point is this...
Sure some people are starting to notice that a good web designer is perferd over the walmart brand web designer. Still 80% of the sites I see are no where near what they should be or just missed the mark compleatly.
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 21:04 — 31st October 2005.
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I am very happy with my current client. He even thinks some of my ideas are un-nessarry. Its just every time someone IMs me with a link, every time I need to find information and every time I do research on some prouduct. The site needs work... Test g2g
Megan posted this at 20:41 — 31st October 2005.
She has: 11,421 posts
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Read this:
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/landwarinasia
Excellent article, but the relevant bit here is at the end where he talks about measuring every client request against the strategy.
Megan
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bja888 (not verified) posted this at 18:21 — 31st October 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
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Yes but I get stoned to death (rocks not drugs) every time I tell someone flash isn't always the answer. Or that their website shouldent be one big image. Or when you tell someone they don't need background music for their site.
Really, I try to make the web better. Optimal Source is a attempt at selling better website layouts. I am starting to think its all futile though...
Megan posted this at 16:47 — 31st October 2005.
She has: 11,421 posts
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That's a good point too - I often hear people say things about how you can't trust information on the web and how it's all spam and garbage. Not true, but when you look around at some of the sites out there you kind of have to agree with them. The web in general looks unprofessional so people believe it's unreliable. To some extent it is, but there are a lot of good on the web as well and we need to work to get it the respect it deserves
Megan
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bja888 (not verified) posted this at 16:19 — 31st October 2005.
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I have noticed, alot of websites for major courprations are eather 100% flash or 100% amature. Either way they are bad. The question is, how much longer must this go on before the web starts to "clean up"?
benf posted this at 13:37 — 31st October 2005.
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Lets face it, with the software that is available today its not essential to know any HTML or CSS to make a website because the programs do it for you. Some will even write javascript. What makes a professional site over a amateur is the way it looks, colour schemes and design. But you dont have to be that experieced to learn this, just look around the web and get and idea.
The only hard part now in web design is the backend scripting, and even now young 16yo school kids are already writing full blown applications. What the hell is wrong with a budding enthusiastic kid to charge money for a website. If the customer isn't happy he doesnt have to pay!!!!
Good Value Professional VPS Hosting
Megan posted this at 14:22 — 31st October 2005.
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I totally disagree with this. A good, professional website goes way beyond looking good. It works well for the users and it works well for the business - it accomplishes the business' goals. That's not simple or easy. True, you don't need to know a lot to make a website but you DO need to know a lot to make a GOOD one. Comments like this just trivialize what we all do and the amout of work we put into the sites we create.
And looking around the web ?!?!? There is an unbelievable amount of garbage out there. And garbage that people unforunately paid for. There are very, very few professional quality websites out there in the grand scheme of things. True, many sites don't need to be "professional" quality but many do - and aren't. No wonder they're not accomplishing their goals.
This really goes back to my last point above about not even knowing what a professional quality website is or what it means to have great skill. Zeldman has great skill. I have half decent skill. Most of the people out there selling websites have very little skill at all (but don't seem to realize it!).
Megan
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bja888 (not verified) posted this at 14:26 — 30th October 2005.
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Great idea demonhale, lets talk about portfolios! I am currently 230 miles away from home to visit the girl friend but I don't really have time to surf the internet. Actually, she just called and as soon as I finish this I will be away from the computer for another day.
You all have seen my portfolio (myweblounge.com) and if you haven't you really should. It's not that functional when it comes to content. It is a great framework to expand apon though.
I would not say that my portfolio is at all miss leading or a bad repersentation of my self. After all I did all of that by my self from scratch. I am compleatly responseble for 100% of the content. While other portfolios try to sell them selfs as much as possable useing what ever templates or tools they can find at their desposal.
Has anyone else seen really fake portfolios?
What do you think of them form a professional view point?
What do you think of them form a amature view point?
Do you think they would still get a job over someone like me?
Discuss, I g2g see the gf
demonhale posted this at 15:47 — 29th October 2005.
He has: 3,278 posts
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Im reviving this thread, why? coz ive been out of town lately (still am while typing this message) and I have the time to surf instead of working so I spent the time at night surfing in sites which offer web design... And guess what? basically about 80% that are having enough customers use either a template or a CMS/Blog for their own site... the rest custom made their site... Also I noticed that some designers (as they claim to be) as I visited their portfolios have a so and so graphic skill and still maybe the customer cant distinguish between an A+ work with a B+ ...
Megan posted this at 17:02 — 13th October 2005.
She has: 11,421 posts
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Intreresting points. I think, however, that what we're getting at here is all the people out there who are selling web design without a competient skill set. The problem with Bob (designer C) is that he doesn't realize that his skillset isn't up to par. He may or may not have a lot of experience - he definitely doesn't have an eye for design or a reasonable level of ability in any aspect of design or development. He is trying to sell web design to clients who don't know enough to recognize his low ability level.
There seems to be a wide variation in what people qualify as "competent". I don't know why but some "designers" just don't seem to realize thet they're not qualified to sell web design. They seem to think they're doing a great job when in reality their work is not even close to being at a professional level. There are a lot of people out there who think they are Suzy but are really Bob. (Or, even worse, they know that they are Bob but recognize that the unsuspecting public can be duped into hiring them).
I looked "professional" up in the dictionary and came up with two relevant meanings:
The problem we have in web design (and this is found in many other fields as well) is that people may be "professional" by definition 1 but not by definition 2. Definition 2 is the key to professionalism in this context but people don't seem to realize a) how important it is and b) what it even means to have great skill.
Megan
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Busy posted this at 09:31 — 30th October 2005.
He has: 6,151 posts
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Definition of professionalism is:
Professional status, methods, character, or standards.
also:
the expertness characteristic of a professional person
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 16:43 — 13th October 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
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Ok, now that we have a good definition of a "professional". The question that keeps me up at night is...
Can Bob (mythical designer #C) take either Joe's or Suzy's job if he knows the boss or someone of high rank. (Or maybe having sexual relations with them)
Bob got a masters degree in English and has been working with company #Q (Wait, what letter are we on?) for 2 years now. The day that company #Q decides it needs to be on the internet Bob mentions that he has been using Dreamweaver for the 5 months and clams he is "Good at it". He also tells boss (#W) he has maintained a website in his spare time (A geocities site or something).
Will company #Q care or know the difference between [Bob] or [Joe and Suzy]? If yes, then is the company willing to spend in order to have the obviously better people?
timjpriebe posted this at 12:21 — 13th October 2005.
He has: 2,667 posts
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Here's the opinion I've formulated while pondering this topic since this thread was first posted.
There is some blurry line out there that distinguishes professionals from amateurs. Not only is this line blurry, but it's somewhat different for each person. I might consider someone a professional, but you might consider them an amateur.
The position of that line is based primarily on two things: Level of skills and level of conduct. Someone can be much stronger in one than another and still be considered a professional by many.
Let's talk about two mythical web designers. Joe and Suzy Web design web pages for people. They gets paid for it. They makes a living from it. So far, we don't know enough about Joe and Suzy to decide if we would consider them professionals.
Joe is a people person. He's great at communicating. He is able to figure out exactly what a customer's wants and needs are, and the customer knows that he understands. Joe's actual design skills, while not great, are competent.
Suzy, on the other hand, is a fantastic designer. She feels more at home working on the computer than she does interacting with customers. While she is uncomfortable meeting with clients, she knows that it is necessary, and still acts very polite and tries to communicate well with clients.
Who is the more professional? If you were just looking at portfolios, you might say Suzy. If you were to meet with both designers, you might say Joe. But if both of them have an appropriate amount of skills in both areas, they're both professionals. The difference of opinion generally comes in what is an appropriate amount of skills.
If you're lucky, you get one person who's great in both. Or one design firm that both Suzy and Joe work at. My business tends to be the latter. I'm Joe, and my partner is Suzy. Well, really I'm Tim and my partner is Steve, but I think you get the idea.
Tim
http://www.tandswebdesign.com
demonhale posted this at 02:28 — 13th October 2005.
He has: 3,278 posts
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I didnt prefer one over the other, They are just tools for different needs like I can use a warhammer for punching nails but then a regular hammer would do the trick, it generally would be overkill I might say...
bja888 (not verified) posted this at 02:19 — 13th October 2005.
They have: 5,633 posts
Joined: Jan 1970
Wow someone who uses ASP but perfers php? I had no idea that existed. Well, I am glad I was introduced to ASP first. It allowed me to smoothly transition into programming. I'm writing a program to keep track of my hours.
I'm glad this convo got back on the right trach though. I think the whole "job-less" thing put me in a bad mood the past few months.
demonhale posted this at 01:06 — 13th October 2005.
He has: 3,278 posts
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Depends on what I want to use it for bja, to me it would quite be easier for Active Server Pages coz of my C programming background, in relation however I get the hang of PHP quite a bit, for DB apps I like PHP and MySQL combo, but then Im starting to be a bit of a fan of the PHP flatfile combo too...
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