What to do? Website owner is stubborn!

He obviously considers himself to be an experienced web designer. Just do what you are being paid to do and leave him in his own little world of dillusion.

You can try to give him advice on best practices and whatnot, but quite often with these kinds of people it just rocks the boat and causes agro.

Could throw some images together of how the site could look if you did it, often visual works better than words

Suggest that when the site is done he comes here and request a critique.

-Greg

Thanks for the advice. I didn't want to offend him or anything, so I wasn't sure how to go about it.

CAN WE SEE IT!!!

Everyone loves an ego boost and make his work will give us all more confidence in our own work lol

yeah let him post the design here first even though its a mock-up, so hell see what crap his putting out(sorry) anyways, there are actually clients that can be stubborn with what they like, I just follow them since they are paying. Then after the site is finished I tell them that if they need it redesigned Ill be up for it... Then (this is sneaky but it worked) I used his contact form pretending as a visitor, and give feedback how I cant read the texts, or how the site is poorly designed. After a week he contacted me to ask what I think I could do to spice up the site... I think I might have helped him in the long run since he was getting real good feedback through his contact form now...

That IS pretty sneaky demonhale! It's a good idea though.

The rule to remember is that as long as they are paying, they are always right! If they want a certain thing and are paying good money for it, don't worry about whether or not you find it attractive because he clearly does and after all, you don't have to have anything to do with the site once it's finished.

There are some ethical issues with what demonhale has done but that is not what is being discussed here. Basically, just remember that it is their design, not yours. All you can do is advise the client what would work better before you start on the project just to show a little professionalism and show that you know what you are doing. Just be sure to back it up with solid unbiased points.

Depending on how you explain things to the client, he/she may agree with you and actually ask you to [re]do the design. Chances are though, that the client will just want his original design. After the project is finished, just leave him be, if he complains to you that his business is dropping, kindly remind him of what you had originally advised.

Thanks. I will suggest all of that. I think I am gradually breaking him down by saying that I could get the content much more organized and appealing. We are actually pretty close friends so I'm trying hard not to be too harsh.

Thanks again. I appreciate the advice.

I think that anytime a client requests something that you know isn't a good idea you have to at least try to explain why. They're going to you for professional advice, you better deliver Even if it's outside of what they're paying you for, you could simply suggest that the design could use some work (and point out why). No need to go on about it, but at least make them aware of the problems.

When I run into a situation like that, I tend to tell my clients something like, "Here's what I would do... But it's your site, so if you really want to do this, I will do it. But I do not recommend it at all." Occasionally I've had clients ask for something I strongly disagreed with, and I told them that I would not be advertising that I designed the site if they had me implement it. So far, that's persuaded them.

ditto on tim... yeah as a supporting fact on my previous post, the client came to me for web design work, and what they want wouldnt be my design, but an implementation of their design. I persuaded them even and tried to talk them out to just add some skinning or reorganize the content, but they wouldnt budge... then what I posted above was what I finally did... Hope you can sort out your problems with them soon, since you said hes a friend anyways, theres no harshness when your telling the truth and that it will eventually benefit a friend...

If the basics are all messed up, that's one thing. A site needs to have the basic fundamentals down pat. However, if it is just the cosmetics of the site, then play it by ear with the client. You can politely suggest some things that are more appealing to you and see how receptive they are. For others, you can suggest it and then leave it be. Don't try and force your opinions on someone else. If they ask you for your feedback, tell them exactly what you think and most importantly why, but don't force the issue if not asked. Some people just need to learn for themselves. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

Another thing to remember is, sometimes "ugly" sells really well. What we may perceive as ugly by webmaster and designers standards, may not be perceived the same way as your average surfer. As long as the site is easy to read, easy to navigate, and everything works, the design is pretty much secondary.

I completely agree. I would want my friends to be honest with me, so I feel I should return that to them, but I don't know if that's necessarily what they want from me. Some people just want to be complimented and not always hear the truth.

Just remember there's a difference between being honest and harsh and honest and constructive. The latter will usually make the person feel better about it, whereas the former can often lead to them being dispirited or falling out with out