Is there a place for non-artistic web designers?

What you really need is just to practice. Everybody starts out bad...and then gets better. Thats just how it works.

Well I really suck at coming up with original graphics, takes me forever to come up with anything I like. And color schemes, I've recently given a try to some programs to help get colors that look good together.

This is why we have someone here to do the artwork. She creates a layout in programs she uses (generally Freehand, Illustrator, or Photoshop), then when done I take that file and create the web page design behind the scenes that make it look as close to her file as possible.

Now I'm finally getting the time to learn how to adapt everything over to using CSS and such instead of the old ways.

-Greg

I believe everyone has a weakness, whether it be spelling/grammer, graphics, X/HTML, CSS, programming, databases, customer relations, making a cup of coffee ...

I personally suck at graphics and spelling/grammer, but make a mean cup of coffee - for myself
Not knowing the topic, ie CSS doesn't mean your no good at it, after a year of doing CSS (daily) you still can't get the grasp of it you either have the wrong teacher/learning method or you suck at it.

The best way to do it is out source it, as Greg K has it sounds good, someone makes the layout and you code to suit. There can be a challenge as some graphic designers dont have a clue about the X/HTML / CSS side of it but if you find and keep someone on your own wave length you have it made.

Sure there's a place for non-artistic developers. Maybe not designers, but definitely developers.

In fact, developing a good solution, either for a process (scripting) or for communication (usability/accessibility) is the core of web design. It may not be the only necessary aspect, and there may be overlap between design and development, but it's definitely key.

As has been mentioned, where you have a weakness, you can get others to do that work for you. Otoh, if you're trying to run a one-man show, it could get tough.

Try getting good at whatever challenges you... if that doesn't work, outsource. I wouldn't worry much about it.

Outsourcing is for wimps.

Thats why it should be illegal in the US to outsource ANYTHING technical or computer related (doesn't including grunt manufacturing or like shoe factories)

ElementallyMetal, whats the difference between manufacturing and webdesigning?
Both usually produce an end product, both usually have seperate or lots of sections, both can sometimes be done by one person but is often cost effective to get someone else to do it - outsource.

Manufacturing requires no real skills, and is neglible compared to the work we dont outsource.

Technology, however, needs to stay in America, not be outsourced, so we can continue to develop it and stay on top of technology. We don't need countries stealing our secrets.

I'm not really sure what you mean by "artistic" here. I think I probably have a different idea of what that means. To me, "artistic" is very different from basically nice looking, which is what most of the sites we get in critiques are.

To keep an objective standpoint, I'll say that there is no place for a web designer who cannot make things look good. That's an important part of a designer's job. It's what people hire you to do. Design in terms of usability, accessibility, layout etc. is another important part. It all works together and a good *designer* should be able to do that. (*designer* being different from graphic artist).

That said, good design doesn't necessarily have to take a lot of time. If you know what you're doing it's quite easy. Complicated *graphics* (in terms of images, may take a lot of time but I don't think that's what you're talking about.

I'll also say that different people have very different ideas of what looks good.

What I meant was...other companies (this happens in India, for example) will steal a product that the manufacturing has been outsourced, and produce it for a much lower cost because they had no design. Wrong.

Ok, I didn't clarify. I meant outsourcing for business jobs/positions (such as CEO,programmer, customer service, etc) should stay in America (or the respective country). Importing food I don't have problem with, nor exporting goods or importing goods. But we don't need to export our jobs.

ElementallyMetal, isn't outsourcing and importing in the same boat?

example 1: you have a web designer who can't make graphics, he hires someone that can (outsource).
example 2: you have a boat company who can't build engines, they import from a company that builds boat motors.

To me, example 2 is still out sourcing, the fix couldn't be found instore so needed to outsource. The end result in both examples equals more money for the orginal company/designer as they have the missing puzzle piece.

Stealing is stealing no matter what it is, but bread for example, I bet when that was discovered there was only one type. If we weren't allowed to build/copy/improve or whatever you want to call it we wouldn't have brown bread, voguel, white bread, toast bread, sandwich bread ... On the internet we wouldnt have Opera, Netscape ...

Usually if a product is outsourced it has a patent, code wise usually includes a copyright notice or an agreement

I define outsourcing as from one country (this case...USA) to another (China/Japan/India) for technological purposes.

Everything else is import/export.

I agree with Busy on this one. Outsourcing and Importing seem to be the same thing.

Try to look at outsourcing as getting help. In school (or sometime during your life) did you ever have to ask a friend for help? Did you ever have to come onto TWF to look for help?

ElementallyMetal, so if you ask for help in here and I help in some way, then you are a wimp because you have outsourced your problem? I am in New Zealand.

I'm not talking about HELP, I'm talking about DOING. Outsouring your entire IT or Customer Service department is rediculous. Made in America, stay in America.

Busy, there is a difference between import/export and international outsourcing, particularly en masse. The boat example doesn't relate to the design example, imo. The boat engine is a material good, whereas the deisgn job is... a job, it's labour, paid by wage, subject to different taxation.

In the same vein, though, I think Kyle is wrong in generalising with "everything else is import/export". Outsourcing of both skilled an unskilled jobs are mostly the same. In the context of America, the only real difference is the effect it has on the labour market. I have read arguments attempting to prove that the effect on US jobs as a direct result of outsourcing tech jobs is really very little, as well as arguments claiming the opposite.. As far as I can tell, the economic consequences are unclear. One would be rash to say "outsourcing is for wimps" -- dicto simpliciter.

There are several problems with this idea of preserving secrets (I'm assuming only 'trade secrets') to "stay on top" of things. Firstly, the US intellectual property system is riddled with absurd inefficiencies and loopholes. I say this not because I know the laws in text, but rather because of the surreal results we've witnessed in recent times. Amazon patenting "one-click shopping", Microsoft patenting or attempting to patent several mundane routines and structures (and not just in the US), and so on. This is just a special case of the problem of trying to keep what is called 'common knowledge' secret. Busy referred to this with the bread analogy. Another example would be scientific knowledge -- which is something that really ought not be kept secret, and has historically remained open. (As a sidenote, the internet was conceived on a scientific basis, and grew in university environments, which is probably why there is a pervading sense of information freedom on the web today.) Anyhow, all this leaves us with, at best, a shaky idea of what a 'secret' is, whether it is really worth keeping it secret, or if it's even ethical.

Kyle says that these secrets are stolen when outsourced. I don't see this as a general trend. In fact, I think these are likely isolated incidents -- I've never heard of it before. I don't see a reason why this would happen, really... outsourcing to India is creating a huge boost to the Indian tech sector. Stealing information would be severely detrimental to that, and I don't expect that any thieves would have avoided the consequences of being discovered. Why break something that's working?

Yet I don't see how stealing secrets in India, China, Zimbabwe or Estonia could have any more of an effect than similar stealing in the US itself. Don't tell me that doesn't happen. And I don't expect that the fact that the stolen knowledge will remain within the US economy will somehow neutralise its negative effect. Really, it's a hazard induced by making something a secret in the first place.

I've probably gone off on a few tangents by this point, but what I'm trying to get at is that information is free, and there's not much one can do to keep it from flowing. IP and trade secret laws are designed not to give the inventor wholesale, lifetime ownership of his knowledge, but to give him a head start in the market with a monopoly. Eventually, that knowledge will spread, feeding competition. I think that's why fluid information is an ideal of the free market.

My final question is what keeping secrets and/or jobs has to do with the US staying on top of technology. I don't understand the relationship. Or rather the point of it. What has technological progress got to do with national interests? With the spread of knowledge (scientific, common knowledge, whatever) to developing countries, and the growth of high-tech industries and institutes -- independent of outsourcing -- means there's a global spread of knowledge-power. For the US or any country to stay competitive without hindering overall human progress, the country's tech sector has to innovate, not withhold knowledge. And we are seeing innovation on a wider scale, with all kinds of developments surfacing internationally.

It might be worth mentioning here that the majority of the work sent to, say, India, is not high-level research stuff. Not anything that needs innovation or a great deal of creativity. One review I read in the past referred to it as "grunt work". The innovative, creative, developmental field is quite untouched. I don't see why the US would struggle to stay (nearly) on top in that sense.

Still, the worst that mass outsourcing does for the US is reduce cashflow, cut the working population in that sector, and create the illusion that it is a failing sector. In my uneducated economic opinion, I think it's the flipside of the global free market returning to bite the US in the rear. You said unskilled labour can be shipped overseas... since you can't hold back knowledge, what's to stop the skill level from growing?

My question is: Why does America or any other country need to stay on top?

Who-ever's on top is going to get the most money, and that's good for a country's economy.

unfortunately, outsourcing has nothing to do with skill-level and everything to do with cheap labor. why are american businesses going to hire someone for an IT position, and pay them wages and benefits, when they could get someone in india to do the same for pennies. it's not about america being on top, it's about making jobs available to americans. if jobs aren't available, that means those people aren't making money or contributing to the economy. i know there are a lot of people out there that would just love to see america's economy, superpower status fail. but that will bring consequences to nearly all the free countries in the world. heck, japan's economy affects everyone...

Americans are losing jobs in the tech sector because they are being outsourced to India and China, and the unemployment rate is going up. Much of the world is effected by the rise and fall of the US economy, so I believe it is in the best interest of not only the US, but the world, to keep the tech positions in-house; however, most companies are outsourcing.

Call Dell's tech support, and 9 times out of 10, you get the call center in India...which creates two problems. #1- their english is terrible and unintelligible for the most part. #2- these people are reading pre-typed instructions on a computer, and they have no knowledge of the technical aspects of a computer (generalization...doesn't happen in every case however).

These problems don't just occur with Dell, they occur with many of the companies outsourcing. This creates a HUGE problem for American consumers who become frustrated at unintelligble support...not to mention the racial bias that exists thanks to 9/11 creating angst.

Outsource the manufacting of textiles...fine. Most of us won't care.
Outsource the customer support or technical jobs...most of America cares.

Corporations should follow the opinions of their customers and stop outsourcing, resulting in higher rates of satisfaction, and a lower unemployment.