Opera v. 8.0

Megan wrote:
Here's a fun comparison chart for those considering a switch:

http://www.opera.com/products/desktop/compare/

"Browser 1" and "browser 2" remain nameless but I think we know who they are Gotta love the cost of "browser 1"

LOL, that's hilarious.

Is there ever a webmaster convention?

Whoo hoo! I paid for V7, so I can upgarde for free!

I started with Opera 5, and got the V6 upgrade for free, then less than five months ago, I paid for version 7.

I've recently upgraded Firefox, and have been using it since the last two versions of FF have been faster than Opera which was my previous browser of choice.

Off to download the upgrade and do some speed comparison.

Indeed, never mind what they *say* the rendering speed is, lets see if they're actually the fastest browser on earth (I did notice they've dropped that title).

Personally Opera is my browser of choice, due to all the extra features. I'm they'd confuse the heck out of anyone wishing to switch from ie so for them I'd recommend Firefox... Horses for courses

Well....the latest Firefox is still faster than the latest Opera. Opera 5 was the fastest Opera, 6 was just a tad slower, but still faster than older versions of Firefox, but with 7 and 8 I do see VERY noticable slowdown. I'm running Firefox 1.04, and both 1.03 and 1.04 are faster than Opera now.

Though changing Opera 8 to 'Redraw instantly' does speed it up a tad.

Ahhh, thanks for that Roo, very interesting!

I did wonder why Opera had stopped with that advertising line

Greetings from Calgary, Alberta, Canada .......I couldn't find my home webmaster's forum after an emergency hard-disk wipe; and, while thrashing through the webmaster forum jungle, Low and Behold the words Opera 8 popped out at me followed by the equally potent SVG. I have been using Opera since about version 5 .10, and version 8 is a jewel. The Bookmarks are now flexible; it is "cleaner", first, as noted to introduce Native SVG; and once you have viewed your SVG site on full screen Opera, you will never want to have it any other way. I invested $29 in 2002 on Opera, and now that I am dual booted with Linux, and Opera will simply give you a second serial number at no charge; and given the hidden cost of a browser built into the operating system; amd given that Opera actually talks to you and cares about what you have to say, .....what is the problem?? It is a boxing day bargain when you think about it. But then some use OutBack Diggery Do instead of Pegasus so there are things that I am just dumb about. Mozilla have been talking about Native SVG forever: may they finally deliver. If they integrate it with XHTML under XML as has been discussed, then SVG will finally make it into the mainstream. Enough for now: I am sort of an interloper, but hope that I am welcome and can stay awhile. Cheers, SirCoistrel aka Muzz

Hi again, the speed of Opera is definitely related to the friendliness of the operating system. Besides, it is at worst only a tad slower, but then think of those extra moments you get to enjoy some of the fantastic skins or the marvels of your latest web creation! And, you can still use the Adobe SVG plugin in Opera if you want so it is much superior to Mozilla in what is going to hopefully be the mainstream vector format of the future. Love it. Sir Coistrel.

Welcome to the forums, SirCoistrel!

I agree about the speed. Same with startup time which is another thing people tend to get fussy about. As long as its reasonably fast, I don't care. All the browsing convenience factors more than make up for it.

SVG is cool and all, and I love to see Opera introducing new standards all the time, but really, what are you going to do with it? It's not much practical use when only one browsers support it. Might be fun to play with sometime, that's all.

Hi Megan and thanks. It was your post which brought me here. Once you have built a web-site in, say, for the moment, Adobe SVG with an editor such as Web Engne or SiteSpinner from Virtual Mechanics out of Toronto; then you will NEVER want to go back to HTML, XHTML, DHTML etc. At the moment, with Adobe, you have to embed the SVG page in an HTML page because most ISPs don't support the SVG Mime type. But murphy, the results are more than worth it in spades. SVG to use a metaphor is non-propriety Flash and getting better all the time.

HTML 4.01 is the end of the road for HTML. XHTML 1.0 is Baically HTML 4.01 and, as you know, with XHTML 1.1 we enter a new world with SVG and XHTML sitting under the XML dome. Opera are sitting astride two worlds: plugin SVG or better yet Native SVG. Mozilla are already outputting nightly builds in SVG and it is assumed that native SVG will make Mozilla 1.1. Mozilla have even more ambitious plans to integrate XMTML and SVG in some manner. In any case the TWO MAJOR browsers now support Native SVG.

Probably the busiest folk in the SVG world right now are the Inkscape developers. SVG is already a significant factor in the various Linux builds.
Megan, I can create pages in SVG which you simply can't duplicate in HTML, and do so with ease. The converse doesn't hold. The argument has now been going on for several years whether Flash or SVG is the better format with the non-propriety aspect of SVG holding the balance of power. Evol Grafix out of Germany is probably the top line Native SVG editor. Vendors have been waiting on the browsers to make a move: two have done so. SVG is going to fly, fly, fly (can you hear the music?)

I am afraid my posts are never short. Sigh. I have already built a 38 page SVG site and the client loved it. NEVER again will I build a strictly XHTML site.
I imagine you have done this already, but just type in SVG in Google and look at the bountiful harvest. Just for fun, with your permission, I will create an SVG page and challenge you to match it with an under $100 US HTML based software package. That could be fun.

The broader issue is vector versus raster images. This of, course, is being typed in Opera 8!! Cheers, SirCoistrel. (a coistrel is a stable boy)

Quote: In any case the TWO MAJOR browsers now support Native SVG.

No, two of the major browsers (almsot) support* it, not THE two. THE ONE brwoser does not support it, and since, what, 80% of web visitors use that browser, then what practical use is SVG to us, now? I do understand what SVG is and why it's great. I have used page layout programs in the past - I get the picture, you don't need to explain that. My point is that its just not of much practical use when the majority of users wouldn't be able to see it natively. Great thing to look forward to in the for future (if users ever move on from IE 6 but that's another story...).

I'm afraid I am a little uneducated when it comes to SVG programs & plugins, but when I hear "plugin" I tend to stop paying attention.

* and I think one could argue that Opera isn't a "major" browser. The usage numbers are not very high.

I am afraid that I am just, for the moment, going to say "No comment." Not rudely, but out of utter frustration. A discussion is one thing, even if a little on the warm side, but when I read ---from a WEBMASTER --- "when I hear 'plugin' I stop paying attention," far be it from me to attempt to make you think. Statisical usage simply points out the power of OEM and the number of sheep in the world. Sir Coistrel.

Sorry for the mis-citation: "tend to stop paying attention." is how it should have read.

Megan, I have been fighting for SVG for 3 years and made over a 1,000 posts on that subject alone. Pardon me, then, if I get both a little bit passionate about the subject and lack patience with those who in the Webmaster ranks who have not investigated it further given its offical status with the W3C.

IE at one time commanded zero percent of the market. It's current status has everything to do with OEM and, at present, little to do with merit. Both Opera and Mozilla are better browsers than the IE that exists today.

Mozilla made a major committment to SVG just two months ago and the developers very much want to see it in version 1.1. It IS ALREADY AVAILABLE as stated in the nightly builds.

Nothing changes if one does not step forward and fight for it.

Cheers, Sir Coistre.

To Megan and ALL,

Thank-you kindly for your courtesy and good spirit. I suspect, however, that it is best that I move on. Forums to me are not love-ins; they are places for rational debate and discussion with "truth" being the final court of appeal, not the "avoidance of confrontation" at all costs. I, however, tend to be rather forthright and this leads to disputation. And that is something I do not have time for at the present.

A WebMaster, in my books, is fully on top of recent developments in technology as befits his role of developer of the web-site and the person responsible for its maintenance and upgrading. He should always be striving to give his client, even if that is himself, the very best.

Less than three months ago, neither Opera (except in beta) nor Mozilla had native SVG viewing capability. Yet, today, both do or shall VERY shortly. That is the breakthrough that users of SVG have been waiting for to burst out of the niche and into mainstream. Now what about IE. To argue that "what is the point of using SVG" if no can view it is riddled with misconceptions. You start by utilizing the Adobe SVG plugin viewer whose users number in the millions worldwide. It is the simplest download on earth and sure beats the blazes out of the use of cookbook scripts.

You sell a product by using it, not sticking your head in the sand. It is that simple. SVG and not HTML should in truth be the lingua franca of the net --- and you may assume that that subject has received much attention.

Most people who call themselves WebMasters should in fact simply be using the term WebDesigner --- a distinction which exists formally in Alberta as it applies to educational matters.

Thank you for your time. All the best, Sir Coistrel

Sir - your crusade for SVG is very admirable Sorry about your frustration in the debate here. I feel the same way about Opera & other alternative browsers. If someone here told me they don't care about that topic I'd probably be pretty irritated You have convinvced me to take a closer look at SVG (if I ever have time!! So many things to study, so little time )

I actually don't consider myself to be a "webmaster" by many definitions. My day job is quite removed from that, actually. Personally, when it comes to emerging standards I feel that what I need to know is the basics - that is, until they become fully supported and usable. If I got paid for this it might be a different story. This goes for most of the parts of CSS-2 and CSS-3. I also know almost nothing about the intricacies of PHP and many other scripting languages, or SEO & Marketing and all that sort of stuff. If that means I'm not a "webmaster" then ??? Whatever. It's just a label.

Just because one person disagrees with your doesn't mean you should stop participating here. I am sorry that my comments have had this affect on you. Please, don't take me so seriously. I'm just one person who isn't really even a "webmaster"

Hello, I can be brief and to the point, it just seldom happens. But it is an interesting fact that will require some poking around that I CANNOT display an Inkscape .svg file in raw format. If, however, I install the Adobe SVG plugin 3.03 in Opera, and embed the Inkscape .svg page in an .html page with Web Engine, then the .svg file displays just fine in Opera as .....html. But since Opera answers questions, as do Inkscape, an answer must be available. Cheers, Muzz.

I would love to see SVG move forward. Unfortuatly since it's use depends on a plugin it's just not feasable to impede usability with it.

Inkscape was mentioned, and since I can't afford a major vector app like Illy, I have Inksapce and am impressed with it.

I agree that the OEM is responsible for the fact that, that moronic browser is the major one being used. It's also responsible for holding up the use png with alpha transparancy.

But hey....why should Micro$haft listen to disgruntled web developers? They've got what they wanted with IE being an OEM...why should they care how crappy thier browser is when the majority of people use it.

Personally I do my best to educate people as to why they should use Mozilla or Opera...anything BUT that browser....but in the end they usually still stick with it.

Quite right Roo, ie is a terrible browser, in fact - and I do believe this even though it sounds a little like conspiracy - it has been noted that Microsoft are deliberately attempting to halt development of web technologies for fear that web applications (run on a company Intranet etc) could dislodge their precious API. If developers use technologies that work cross-platform there's no hook that'll stop people switching to Linux or Mac, and lets face it - no matter what propaganda MS pumps out - Linux is free, ergo cheaper than Windows.

As for SVG, it sounds much like Flash at the moment. We as web designers/web masters cannot use it at yet because it will not work in the browser with the majority share of the market. I for one do appreciate your comments though SirCoistrel, I now have a metaphorical ear to the W3C-ground listening for SVG news. I already forsee Firefox overtaking ie in the mid to long term future (in terms of market share), if Firefox has SVG support built-in we could see an SVG rennaissance

Your passion is something we share SirCoistrel, slightly different subjects but I am sure the majority here understand your point-of-view.

Roo, Megan, and JeevesBond,.....Please let me thank-you for your kind and tolerant reception to my rather abrupt and perhaps overly provocative entrance to your worlds.

It is now a long-standing dispute as to whether Flash or SVG is the superior format. In the end, however, what matters is that SVG is a sanctioned W3C standard open to all vendors, whereas Flash is proprierty. XHTML and SVG more or less sit side by side as servants of XML. It must always be kept in mind that SVG is still an emerging standard with work ongoing on the 1.2 specification.

SVG isn't, of course, the answer to everything; but it boggles my mind that all that now stands between (nice expression) a SVG Renaissance and stagnation are Gates and Balmer. I have a quotation made by Gates in PC Magazine about a year ago which reads: "I will trample anyone who gets in my way." He means it: preferring to destroy a competitor rather than build a better product. My use of Opera, Pegasus, WinAmp, PC Suite, Jarte, Web Engine et al (as opposed to MS offerings) has resulted in one hassle after another.

I am now dual booted with Ubuntu Linux (freeware all the way) and let me assure you it is one big breath of fresh air to work WITH the developers instead of having everything crammed down your throat.

It is certainly one enthusiastic bunch working on Inkscape and I see nothing but good things developing out out of that scenario.

Again I thank you all for your forbearance: Cheers, SirCoistrel

View on, this is history in the making: ...well, personal history. This is coming from Linux Ubuntu Mozilla instead of Win XP Opera. You mentioned the apathy in initiating change, Roo. Indeed I know what you are talking about. It is frustrating beyond words.

AOL are now building a "new" browser based on the "guts" of Internet Explorer. Netscape 8 was discovered to have 3 well known major security issues. Google are building something, but who knows what exactly. My question: Why?

I understand your point videlicit statistics, Megan: but I maintain that that there are two and only two major, essentially independent browsers committed to quality, reasonable adherence to standards, and whole-hearted client involvement. Mozilla and Opera. I no longer will discuss MS except in conclusion: they deserve their place in history, but contrary to their internal perception, they are readily replaceable: ask IBM.

I now move on to other subjects with this closing comment: the Internet is one of the last, if not the last, bastion of free speech readily available to most: I don't want to see that vanish. No fear that I intend to make this a quasi-political issue: that would be grossly inappropriate. But we as Webmasters are, if not quite the keeper of the keys, certainly know the importance of access to software of our choice and the freedom to use it bounded by the laws of the land and not the seekers of power. Enough. Cheers, SirCoistrel,

Agreed that SVG may well replace Flash, I don't know enough about it to form a proper opinion though. Can SVG be manipulated via the DOM, how is it animated (if at all)?

Yes Microsoft aren't interested in developing good products, very unfortunate and may well cause they're downfall, but not yet. These are interesting times, only time will tell whether Firefox can dislodge the top browser and enough web masters will take notice of standards and lobby for their adoption among users.

Good Morning,...The real importance of SVG lies in the non-proprietary, standard compliant alternative that it presents, an alternative that public debate suggests is at worst a match for Flash. Flash in fact has just adopted some SVG features.

Yes, it most definitely can be animated but that is a complex story. I have a site which utilizes SVG animation (and sound) but at present I only know of one program advanced enough to do it. I will have to check on the DOM issue but my present understanding is that the answer is "yes."

The implementation of SVG has been very uneven because of the browser situation. IE, to be positive for a change, though utilizing the Adobe plugin, is at present the only browser supporting animation and the full suite of SVG capabilities. The animation I use utilizes Java script which Opera are hostile towards for some reason. Opera will not animate under Adobe; whether version 8 will is an open question because of the generally incomplete implementation of Native SVG.

Including Amaya, all the browsers including Netscape support SVG in some form. But the positions recently adopted by Mozilla and Opera give promise to the field now being developed more quickly and in a more orderly fashion. The W3C are currently developing version 1.2. The "tiny" field, the mobile devices, is one area where SVG has definitely won full-scale acceptance and major utilization.

Adobe apparently have plans for utilizing SVG in Acrobat Reader. Where Flash will go is an interesting question now that Adobe have taken over Macromedia.

Frankly the Adobe and Corel plugins versus Native SVG is not a major issue with me. It is a one time download requiring the inspiration of viewers of your site to do the same --- and that is no different from downloading the Acrobat PDF reader.

Cartographers were the first to fully embrace SVG and there is now major movement in the CAD field to offer SVG as an output option --- in fact it is now a reality. It is the blooming browsers that have presented the only obstacle to allowing the market to form an unbiased judgement of thumbs up or down on SVG.

Hope that helps, and may things be much clearer six months from today. Cheers, Sir Coistrel

Greetings Again JeevesBond: Here is the defintinitve answer:

"SVG drawings can be interactive and dynamic. Animations can be defined and triggered either declaratively (i.e., by embedding SVG animation elements in SVG content) or via scripting.

Sophisticated applications of SVG are possible by use of a supplemental scripting language which accesses SVG Document Object Model (DOM), which provides complete access to all elements, attributes and properties. A rich set of event handlers such as onmouseover and onclick can be assigned to any SVG graphical object. Because of its compatibility and leveraging of other Web standards, features like scripting can be done on XHTML and SVG elements simultaneously within the same Web page."

from the official documentation: Cheers, SirCoistre

You seem addicted to OPERA Megan

Oh, I am! I haven't even mentioned the mail client in here (very much like gmail)

The other day I encountered the new cookie management sytem which gives you full control over what cookies are installed and how. This was a particular shortcoming in previous versions so I'm glad its been improved.

Uh huh *nods politely and backs away slowly but akwardly*

Ah, I see SirCoistrel... On a side not, I found an svg animation on my phone the other day (Sony Ericsson K700i - for the geeks) completely by accident, I bluetoothed it to my pc and it opened in Opera and played fine, very exciting!

Particularly like the idea of using a single DOM for everything... Can really see where the w3c are heading and it's a good place. Hopefully Microsoft wont break anything along the way!

[EDIT]
You're quite right Megan, Opera is a wonderful thing!
[/EDIT]

On a slightly different aspect of Opera, I just found the built-in RSS reader... Ooooh *drool*

Oh, yeah, Opera has RSS Don't you just love it??? LOL. Check out the email tools when you get a chance. Like gmail only better.

Of course I love it, it's Opera!

I get the impression that Opera has less of a user base than most other browsers, but the users it has got make up for it by being ten times more enthusiastic about their beloved browser. But then what better can you get for a 4 meg download?

... No that was a rhetorical question

As for the e-mail I loved it apart from one critical thing: There's no facility to create an HTML signature, so had to switch to Thunderbird.