Calling all web developers for global survey

They have: 2 posts

Joined: May 2004

Hi there all!

This is actually a post that will hopefully help me with my research project as part of my Computer Science Degree Finals.

I am looking into the state of Accessibility on the Internet, and finding out why so many websites lock blind people out of their websites by not making them accessible.

If you run your own website, I would appreciate you contacting me with any comments you would like to contribute. Email comments to [email protected] or post reply on this forum.

Please think about the following questions. Do not be put off, and if you hadn't considered accessibility in the past then we would still like to hear from you.

Do you know about the current legislations that protect disabled internet users from discrimination?

When buidling a website do you think about accessibility?

Are you aware of any tools or guidelines available out there to help deign a website with accessibility features built-in?

When considering accessibility, do you build it into the website from the very start, or evaluate the website at the end and then make final changes?

If you use any accessibility realted tools or guidelines then please give details of them.

Why do you think so many websites are inaccessible?

Many thanks for your help. You have participated in a very important global user study in Internet Accessibility!

They have: 2 posts

Joined: May 2004

This is your chance to participate in a global study on the state of Internet Accessibility.

Please answer the following questions providing as much details as possible, and if you would like to be contacted when the report is published for a copy of your own, then include your email address or username.

o you know about the current legislations that protect disabled internet users from discrimination?

When buidling a website do you think about accessibility?

Are you aware of any tools or guidelines available out there to help deign a website with accessibility features built-in?

When considering accessibility, do you build it into the website from the very start, or evaluate the website at the end and then make final changes?

If you use any accessibility realted tools or guidelines then please give details of them.

Why do you think so many websites are inaccessible?

Many Thanks!

Megan's picture

She has: 11,421 posts

Joined: Jun 1999

Do you know about the current legislations that protect disabled internet users from discrimination? To an extent, yes. I probably don't know as much as I could about s. 508 etc.

When buidling a website do you think about accessibility?
I try to, yes. My higher ups aren't interested so I have to fight hard for any changes I want to make to our current model.

Are you aware of any tools or guidelines available out there to help deign a website with accessibility features built-in?
Yes. ALA has done some good articles with lots of good tips. Proper coding as the base. I have used accessibility checkers in the past but I haven't thoroughly studied the w3c guidelines. I also attend seminars on the subject when I can. At the university I work for we have an annual accessibility fair which includes seminars on web design as well as a show of tech. products. It's very interesting to actually try out alternative browsing devices.

When considering accessibility, do you build it into the website from the very start, or evaluate the website at the end and then make final changes?
Better to build in from the start as much as possible.

If you use any accessibility realted tools or guidelines then please give details of them.
Sort of covered above.

Why do you think so many websites are inaccessible?
Because people don't think it's important. They think that such a small percentage of their audice isn't worth accommodating. What they don't understand is that making a site usable for the disabled is also making it easier to use for everyone.

Suzanne's picture

She has: 5,507 posts

Joined: Feb 2000

I use standards and most of the accessibility takes care of itself.

I've removed your duplicate thread.

Since I run my own business, I don't consult my clients on accessibility issues. I determine their audience and the function of the site and build it in as needed (most of it is handy for more than just blind people, so it goes in as standard). I also don't consult my clients on using standards. I just do it.

s0da's picture

He has: 157 posts

Joined: Mar 2004

Do you know about the current legislations that protect disabled internet users from discrimination?
Wow; really? I'll be sure to write all my pages in brail.

When buidling a website do you think about accessibility?
I think about accessibility, yes. But not to the point where disabled people HAVE to be able to read or scroll down to see the bottom of the page.

Are you aware of any tools or guidelines available out there to help deign a website with accessibility features built-in?
Well, there are quite a bit of them including articles written to help guide web designers. I know alot of these free hosting web sites have a auto-generator HTML type thing to help start a web site. Many sites are dedicated to providing auto-generatated HTML also with color schemes and navigation all combined on a default template.

When considering accessibility, do you build it into the website from the very start, or evaluate the website at the end and then make final changes?
I build accessibility from the start and towards the end. Why? Because such and such browsers tend to not like a majority of code ie CSS and JavaScript.

If you use any accessibility realted tools or guidelines then please give details of them.
The only thing I can really say I use is a template engine I created in PHP. But that would be on my end of accessibility. It's much easier for users to switch from one template to another. A broadband and narrowband selection is very important for my site.

Why do you think so many websites are inaccessible?
Because people go to regular high school or take a course in web design THEN when they get out; they put up these terrible web pages. I mean come on... a yellow background?

Yosho's picture

He has: 8 posts

Joined: May 2004

I’ve never really thought about accessibility issues for disabled internet users. I hate to say it but I’m not even sure how to make a site more accessible. I’m not a professional site designer, nor do I delve into advanced supplementary code (except for the occasional java script.)

Where would you suggest I look (outside of TWF) for more information regarding accessibility?

Best Regards

Busy's picture

He has: 6,151 posts

Joined: May 2001

Yosho, there are two main standards, section 508 and WAI, these two standards conflict with one another at the top end so if you want 100% compliance you sort of have to pick one or the other, they cater for different types and levels of disability. you can find heaps of information, including the standards mentioned above in google etc, here are some results when searching for 'accessibility standards' search results from google

I used to push for accessibility, not so much anymore.
Accessibility coding is really just a set standard no different from XHTML, where as there is no need for anything added, it's just used behind the scenes, things like title, label etc.

I think people/webmasters would code more for accessibility if things like screen readers were free or some other methods of testing the site, example for HTML/ XHTML and CSS there are validators, there is Bobby which is meant to be an accessibility validator but it doesn't say yes or no like other validators do, just says "have you ..., if you ..., you might need ..." type things which doesn't make you any the wiser. Having a screen reader or something to use would be a big help and would really push for these standards.
I think 3/4 of web designers/ programmers don't even know about XHTML, so many are still using Frontpage and even Word to make webpages which are very bad accessibility wise.
Some people have a hard time converting from HTML to XHTML only because of being taught bad habits from the beginning (ie tags in uppercase, no closing tags ...) but once they understand XHTML they find it isn't anything high tech, that it's just HTML don't properly, they would understand things like accessibility coding which isn't hard, just isn't seen so is awkward to know if it's right or not.

There was talk last year (or the year before) about a (US) law being passed that sites must comply to some level of accessibility. They could never inforce it, probably why we heard nothing more of it.

IMO the only way to get web sites to some sort of accessibility level would be for people to campaign the WYSIWYG companies/programmers. Without them doing it, sadly the changes of most people learning how/why is just a dream.

In the future, wouldn't it be nice if someone like Google or someone (even Dmoz) created a search engine just for people with disabilities (they say it's 1 in every 5 or 10 people), sites listed would have to comply with one of the standards, 508 or WAI.

He has: 16 posts

Joined: May 2002

Busy wrote: In the future, wouldn't it be nice if someone like Google or someone (even Dmoz) created a search engine just for people with disabilities (they say it's 1 in every 5 or 10 people), sites listed would have to comply with one of the standards, 508 or WAI.

That is a great idea, If I knew I had a chance to be listed in a high
PR directory and also only with some sites, of which probably not a
big chunck of my competition, I would do it. But when you have dozen
of sites that you started some long time ago and you learned later about
CSS and XHTML it is very hard to "upgrade". Also, for clients sites when
you face deadlines and high workload is very hard to go XHTML.

Busy's picture

He has: 6,151 posts

Joined: May 2001

chiazna wrote: I would do it. But when you have dozen
of sites that you started some long time ago and you learned later about
CSS and XHTML it is very hard to "upgrade". Also, for clients sites when
you face deadlines and high workload is very hard to go XHTML.

Rubbish Wink XHTML becomes a habit, coding for accessibility can become habit, server side can become habit.
Example, when you write out a quick reminder, do you
a/ I need to add my shopping list hereor maybe a line
or
b/ I need to add my shopping list hereor maybe a line

(a is HTML, b is XHTML) There isn't much difference between HTML and XHTML, just all lower case and all tags closed. Accessibility you just have to include things like label and title in things (tables have title tags which is a description of the table for the screen reader for example). So the deadline excuse is out Wink as for the old sites, what better reason to "upgrade" them, maybe they were coded for IE, checked in opera or mozilla lately? Plus if you have old sites, you have the perfect test bed for this.
90% of accessibility coding is unseen by viewer.
Order of the page is also an important accessibility function

They have: 5,633 posts

Joined: Jan 1970

Busy wrote: Yosho, there are two main standards, section 508 and WAI, these two standards conflict with one another at the top end so if you want 100% compliance you sort of have to pick one or the other, they cater for different types and levels of disability.

Busy, I think you are referring to the W3C's Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. These recommendations are internationally recognized. WAI is the W3C's Web Accessibility Initiative. Wink

WCAG and U.S. Section 508 requirements are slightly different, but they don’t conflict. From Jim Thatcher’s excellent side by side comparison, “If a web site is WCAG A-Compliant and its author wants to be Section 508 compliant as well, these are the five standards he must address additionally. These are paragraphs 1194.22 (l), (m), (n), (o), and (p).”

HTH,
CK

Busy's picture

He has: 6,151 posts

Joined: May 2001

Welcome zaptd, thanks for bringing that to my attention, but as I mentioned before I said I used to code for these and when I did the limited valuation that was there showed a few things that the two levels didn't agree on, maybe they have changed things, I know there was talk about doing so to make them more accepted (around same time as talk of law being set - maybe 2 years ago).
When I said 'top end' I meant complex sites, The average site wouldn't have any problems going for both standards. sorry I should reread my posts more often.

I'm all for accessibility, just wish the screen readers were free or easier to get so we, the developer could test our work. Its like making a site to XHTML (or even HTML) stanadards, just because it validates doesn't mean it's going to display the same in every browser.

Megan's picture

She has: 11,421 posts

Joined: Jun 1999

Screen readers are really interesting to try out - I think that once you know how they behave it becomes easier to make sites work for them. Its also hard to test a site in a detailed way because they go *so fast*. Non-visual people have a heightened hearing sense they can go at a much faster pace than normal speech. I posted some details about this about a year ago. They literally read the page from start to finish. That means that if the navigation is at the top of the page, which it usually is, the user has to listen to all that before they get to the content (get around this with a "skip navigation" link). Another interesting this is that when they come across an image with no alt tag they just read the file name. There should be more detailed information about this somewhere out there... I'd be interested to know how things like form inputs work.

Oh, I also saw something recently about a free 30 day trial download for screen reading software but I forget where I saw that.

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