Psychological Side of WebSites

I am sorry I had a hard time getting through your post. I guess because you didn't have any bold text, bright colors or moving objects. Just kidding on that.

It is certainly psychology. But it is also visual stimulation. Some of the things that you mentioned (bold text, animation, bright colors) catch the eyes. That is why most advertising banners have movement in them. I personally despise anything moving on a site. Especially those items that have no purpose to move.

I personally think that your goal in building a website is not only providing place that is welcome to the eyes but to make a place where people keep coming back. All the sublimal messages in the world will not work unless you can back it up with good product or good service. In the long run that is what keeps people coming back for more.

And, of course, if there are too many items on a page that are emphasized (by bolding, or animation or whatever) the eye just gets confused, can't focus on anything and the person will probably just leave.

P.S. Has any of this actually been proven?

>Has any of this actually been proven?

In fact, all of it has been proven to effectively increase sales and traffic on your site. Actually some types of subliminal messages are proven to the point where they are illegal.

>All the sublimal messages in the world will not work unless you can back it up with good product or good service.

Yes, of course all of this needs to be backed by a good product. These methods just help the consumer take that final step and actually order your product/service.

>if there are too many items on a page that are emphasized

Psychological integration is very fragile. It takes time and testing to reach that perfect influencing site. If it has too many moving objects, you're right, it can become overwhelming. Thats your job as a web designer to not let that happen. All the rules for a nice, flowing site still apply here people.

Remember that your job isn't to get a horse to drink. It's to make him realize he's thirsty.

I would like references for the proof that subliminal imagery is successful, please.

My latest information on the topic is woefully out of date, but the last readings I read indicated that it was whimsy and more marketing hyperbole to include hidden subliminal imagery and instruction.

Specific journal articles discussing the studies, offline or online would be welcome.

Additionally, any proof on colour theory. Colour theory is widely variable because of different cultural significances for different colours. "cozy earth colours" aren't appropriate for banking, for instance, and would give an odd feeling on a high-tech site. What makes you say that "cozy earth colours" are recommended and how would they interact with the "bright" colours you say are needed to excite the user into buying?

Flash, moving bits, et cetera are reported to TURN OFF visitors, especially at the point of sale. What are your studies indicating that it is suggested instead?

I do agree with you on the topic of writing to your audience and describing their benefits, but you also need to describe the features. Not everyone is benefit driven, and those searching to compare items need to have the breakdown. Having the features *explained* as benefits is one thing, but both pieces need to be in place.

Please advise,

Suzanne

Hello,

Well obviously there are many variations to the color scheme, etc depending on the site.

The statements I have been making are very general and of course, need to be refined to the certain site you are designing.

Here is an article explaining the significance of subliminal messages http://www.buchenroth.com/thesis3.html . Also, have you not noticed that subliminal messages are the whole bases of alcohol and cigarette industries? How else to you think they sell their deathly products? It's by appealing to people through subliminal messages!

I read a great article on colors the other day. I will try and find it for you..In the mean time.. Bright colors - Have you ever wondered why fast food restaurants are decked out with bright colors? Its to excite customers into spending money! You don't think that hasn't been proven? Also, ever notice that restaurants that feed masses of people and depend on "turns" play fast-paced music in the background during the main dining hours? You gulp your food to the tempo of the music, they get you out faster. You have indigestion, they have your seat available for the next sheep in the chute.

Where did you get that flash turns people off? If it wasn't for the long download time I am sure most sites would already be wired. Flash doesn't turn people off, if used wrong it will. That's why you are webdesigners. Don't make the moving objects overwhelming and if you have some style to it people will like it.... Just keep your site proportioned correctly.

As for the copy writing, some features should be mentioned, such as describing what your business is about. That's it. You can get into more detail somewhere else that the viewer can view. If the copy is for your home page of your site you need to catch their attention, not bore them with mind numbing details about your service. When you talk about features you end up with copy that's all about you, and no one really cares all that much about you. It's tough but it's true.

Look you guys, everything I am saying is a general statement of some helpful proven psychological influences and triggers to increase sales. Maybe some tactics aren't right for your company, maybe some are. That's up to you.

Quote: Also, have you not noticed that subliminal messages are the whole bases of alcohol and cigarette industries? How else to you think they sell their deathly products?

That's definitely part of it... Though I don't know if it could be called subliminal advertising. However, most ads for cigarettes/alcohol have something in them trying to make the person looking at it think he or she will be "cooler" if they use the product (e.g. girls/sex is used a lot, then you have the marlboro man, the cartoon camel before that got banned, etc.)

I wouldn't go so far as to say "How else do you think they sell their deathly products?", however- remember that cigarretes have nicotine, which I'm sure brings in a lot of sales, and alcohol is used a lot at parties, etc. just because it can be a whole lot of fun if used correctly

You're definitely right about the fact that color does play a part in how we perceive things, and it is very important for us as designers to pay attention to the psycological impact of different colors on viewers, and use that information to our advantage in our web sites.

Actually, projecting the image of people appearing cool when they use the product is a type of subliminal messaging, it's subliminal ego-(something or other). Nicotine plays a part, but not a big one. The subliminal messages are what attracts the consumer to purchase the cigarettes in the first place because they think it's cool, because they've seen the commercials, because the subliminal messages have got to them. The rich lifestyle, babes and cool atmosphere are all a part of subliminal advertising.

When used correctly subliminal advertising can be very powerful.

Quote: I read a great article on colors the other day. I will try and find it for you..In the mean time.. Bright colors - Have you ever wondered why fast food restaurants are decked out with bright colors? Its to excite customers into spending money! You don't think that hasn't been proven? Also, ever notice that restaurants that feed masses of people and depend on "turns" play fast-paced music in the background during the main dining hours? You gulp your food to the tempo of the music, they get you out faster. You have indigestion, they have your seat available for the next sheep in the chute.

Yes, fast food makes it uncomfortable for you to lounge -- hardly subliminal. The food itself contains additives including salt and fat that trigger human physiological responses, they blow the smell into the restaurant so your nose can tell your belly you are hungry. Not subliminal. Triggering you? Yes. But not messing with your mind.

You have mentioned that "it's been proven" a number of times, but I have yet to see the proof. I'm not arguing with you, I just want you to back up what you are saying.

Quote: Where did you get that flash turns people off? If it wasn't for the long download time I am sure most sites would already be wired. Flash doesn't turn people off, if used wrong it will. That's why you are webdesigners. Don't make the moving objects overwhelming and if you have some style to it people will like it.... Just keep your site proportioned correctly.

useit.com
dack.com

I can pull out more articles in reports on usability and reader reaction if you want, but poke through those two for starters. Flash itself isn't the turn off, but flashy bits, are. Flash can indeed be well used, for instance for items like maps that need to scale, and it's a great medium for vector art. The underlying concept of Flash, which is scalable vector graphics, is being developed to help move the web from it's current state to being able to match everyone's systems while still being searchable (text), and having meaning for search engines (images are meaningless to search engines), et cetera.

But BAM POW LOOK AT THIS! doesn't work. That sort of flash, as in noise, visual or auditory, turns off viewers.

Quote: As for the copy writing, some features should be mentioned, such as describing what your business is about. That's it. You can get into more detail somewhere else that the viewer can view. If the copy is for your home page of your site you need to catch their attention, not bore them with mind numbing details about your service. When you talk about features you end up with copy that's all about you, and no one really cares all that much about you. It's tough but it's true.

Pop back into useit.com and read some of the articles on writing for the web. Also, http://www.rankwrite.com/ has a lot about copy writing for the web. The details are not to be avoided, not at all, just put in a logical formation. As someone clicks through for more information, they become more vested in reading the material, and your level of complexity can increase without losing the reader.

However, you are very correct that you need to write for the user. When I am looking for technical information, I want to know first and foremost what it does, and why I need it. But after that, I need to know the guts of it, the features, and I am also interested in a clear and honest account of its history, its integration with other products and concepts. Different information requires a wholly different approach.

The best concept that I have used (and has been suggested by others) is to have a catchy blurb on the front page and a link to more information. On the next page (more information), you have short descriptions, abstracts, about the article or product, and at the bottom, a link for full details, where you reveal everything and the kitchen sink. Written for the web, naturally. But that way, you get interest, you reveal the needed bits (from the user's perspective) and you reveal it all. However, if you are selling something, the "buy" link should be there at every stage.

Quote: Look you guys, everything I am saying is a general statement of some helpful proven psychological influences and triggers to increase sales. Maybe some tactics aren't right for your company, maybe some are. That's up to you.

That's nice. But where are the empirical results so we can decide whether this is conjecture, rumour, or self-serving information? All I asked for was the studies and research that you drew your conclusions from. Why get defensive?

Suzanne

P.S. Peer pressure and selling an image or ideal is certainly psychological marketing, but it isn't subliminal. The desire to fit in, to be cool, rich and beautiful, these are cultivated by the advertising, but not caused. The concept of subliminal advertising is not to tap into your audience's desires, but to create those desires in the first place, regardless of the actual desires of the person, aka brainwashing. Advertising simply doesn't have the power for this because the other factors involved in successful brainwashing are isolation, lack of sufficient sleep and nutrients, and fear. If you want more information on brainwashing, I recommend looking up studies on the U.S. Army training methods, cult methods of gaining recruits, et cetera.

The article is interesting, but hardly conclusive -- the success of the "u buy" for instance could be easily explained by the fact that the bottle on the far right is the most prominent because of colour and location (we read left to right, the left-most bottle is only HALF there in the first place, the emphasis is on the full, slightly apart, more prominent, stronger coloured bottle).

Anyway, my point is there is no conclusive proof, just a lot of conjecture and imaginings by the author, who weaves a lovely tale, but doesn't follow through with the facts.

TFE, I read somewhere the reasons why people left sites without buying. The No.1 reason was because of errors that they encountered on the site. We are an impatient lot. If we don't get what we want right now with no hassles, we're moving on. That is what you should really focus on.

Colors and subliminal messages may work fine but usability is the key.

Suzanne, please don't make me come up with my sources for my No.1 reason. Actually I think it was Fast Company magazine.

colormatters.com

FLASH

My post:
"Don't make the moving objects overwhelming and if you have some style to it people will like it.... Just keep your site proportioned correctly."

Your post:
"BAM POW LOOK AT THIS! doesn't work. That sort of flash, as in noise, visual or auditory, turns off viewers."

COPY WRITING

My post:
"As for the copy writing, some features should be mentioned, such as describing what your business is about. That's it. You can get into more detail somewhere else that the viewer can view."

Your post:
"The best concept that I have used (and has been suggested by others) is to have a catchy blurb on the front page and a link to more information."

Look a little similar?

Your post:
"Anyway, my point is there is no conclusive proof, just a lot of conjecture and imaginings by the author, who weaves a lovely tale, but doesn't follow through with the facts."
"Why get defensive?"

Your post:
"Yes, fast food makes it uncomfortable for you to lounge -- hardly subliminal. The food itself contains additives including salt and fat that trigger human physiological responses, they blow the smell into the restaurant so your nose can tell your belly you are hungry. Not subliminal. Triggering you? Yes. But not messing with your mind."

Oh okay, so because they do that it means that the restaurants aren't all decked out in bright colors and I guess that means that they don't play fast tempo music during the main dining hours. Thanks a lot for clearing that up.
I don't care if they put damn salt on their burgers, it doesn't mean they don't use subliminal messages!!! Think a little.

"The No.1 reason was because of errors that they encountered on the site."

What kind of errors are these?

I think too much movement is not good
The bright colors are not always good either
Subliminal messages are great, if they work.
Catch phrases are amazing!
Great post, I will incorporate some of this in my site!

Errors that someone encounters on your site like: they have to put in their username a couple of times or they go through the checkout process and the site bombs. They don't have to be major errors but anything that slows someone down from ordering. Why do you think Amazon has a one click checkout? Some people only test their systems in IE. I worked for a company and you could not check out in Netscape. I brought this to the webmasters attention but he didn't seem to care as the CEO only used IE. The funny thing was that James Barksdale was on the board of that company.

Quote: Oh okay, so because they do that it means that the restaurants aren't all decked out in bright colors and I guess that means that they don't play fast tempo music during the main dining hours. Thanks a lot for clearing that up.

I don't care if they put damn salt on their burgers, it doesn't mean they don't use subliminal messages!!! Think a little.

... um, I didn't see any proof anywhere of any subliminal messages. You didn't offer any (still). Bright colours and fast music make it UNCOMFORTABLE to stick around, and you eat faster because of the pace of the music, yes. The same reason fancier restaurants use subdued lighting, and slow music. Some call it atmosphere. No one is denying that we are influenced by our environment. But subliminal has negative connotations, and regardless, I haven't seen a lick of proof.

Suzanne

Quote: Suzanne, please don't make me come up with my sources for my No.1 reason. Actually I think it was Fast Company magazine.

ha ha...

I have actually read studies saying the same thing in a number of different publications (and possibly the Fast Company article).

What I haven't read is conclusive proof that subliminal advertising works, in fact everything I have read indicates just the opposite, which is why I would like TFE to provide empirical studies for me to look over.

Suzanne

Subliminal messages are proven, although I have seen many articles denying the presence and effectiveness of subliminal messages.. I have taken courses on psychological influences, read many books, seen many articles, have a ton of experience and am aware of the effects of subliminal advertising. Our company's psychological consultant has just informed me that "subliminal messages DO work and DO have a positive effect on the consumer's spending habits." Who is an expert at B&E Inc. But he also says the use subliminal messages peaked approximately a decade ago when advertising was still on the rise.

Look, this topic is being debated eternally by experts and we both know we won't come to an agreed solution. Lets just say there are advantages and disadvantages to all forms of advertising, some are more effective for different forms of marketing than others.

I really hate to get into the middle of a debate on subliminal advertising. But I guess I am simply by posting, so here goes. After spending 7 years (before leaving it) in the advertising business I do know a little about subliminal. Subliminal is defined as -adj. subconscious
Think back to your favorite TV commercial, or for that matter, the commercial you hate the most. Chances are, you may not remember the whole commercial, perhaps a slogan, or a specific tune or diddy for that commercial.

In my case as (an example) I HATE the old Roto Rooter commercials.

"Roto Rooter, that's the name, away go troubles down the drain"
It does not matter how long ago I may have heard that diddy...when I hear it I hate Roto Rooter all over again. If I see a Roto Rooter Truck, the diddy pops into my head, much to my dismay.

This is subliminal at it's best! When I was 8-9 I heard that commercial for the first time. Now I still remember after all these years.

In other words, yes subliminal can work, and does all the time and you never even realise it does.

To prove my point, read this next little bit of a very good ad campaign and tell me that you do not know who/what this reffers to.

"Two all beef patties,
special sauce, lettuce,cheese,
pickles, onions, on a sesame seed bun."

You know the product or company right now after reading that. You see the act of repetition, recognition, and remembrance kicks in your subliminal mind. This is but one way that subliminal messaging works.

"Where's the beef?"

All it takes is one word, picture/graphic, saying, song, tune, to kick out a subliminal recognition of some sort.
You may not remember the product, or company or even specifics but you do remember that one thing from a commercial and will try to figure out what it is you can not remember. It is a classic advertising ploy, get them to remember something, anything about you, and when they realise they can not quite place specific information? They WILL try to remember because people hate it when they can't think of the name, product, etc.

Maybe you will ask for proof from me, but I will be honest, I left advertising over 9 years ago so I have none. But it does work IF you can elicit a response in a persons sub- conscious mind, to any form of stimuli you have created some form of subliminal message.

Well good design and layout comes from good skills

No one is arguing that good design doesn't come from skills. It's about the marketing and making your website remembered when users visit it. Subliminals are very complex and hard to achieve. It takes a good eye and a lot of time and experience to perfect these methods, but I believe it will be more than worth your troubles.

Take a look here, this banner uses sex in a subliminal form. (above 2 F's in 'effect'). Your eyes won't catch it on a glance but your subconcious will.

Ani listed some great examples..and I bet he could've kept listing them all day because of the impact subliminals have on us. Anybody know the pepsi (bah, bah, bah) song? I bet you can even remember lots of the commercial, all the colors and action.. Cigarette ads are pure subliminal. Completely subliminal. Nothing else but subliminal! All the proof you need should be around you, in magazines, on TV, on the radio..everywhere.

Now give me a break. We are talking about two entirely different things. One is the use of jingles to achieve product perception. It is a form of subliminal advertising that uses repetitiveness and a catchy tune to achieve it's effect. Certainly on your website, you should convey the fact frequently that this site is the best that there is.

The other is the use of web graphics like to one you mentioned to sell what. Are those two f's in the graphic supposed to make me buy more. That ad banner caused me to buy nothing and it will quickly be gone from my concious and sub-concious mind. That is nuts.

The evidence that keeps coming up is always from TV commercials and print ads. I still have never seen evidence that subliminal messages on a web site have anything but a marginal effect.

Look above the F's..its the same idea as this here. If you are disagreeing it pulls in the hits, I have proof for that. It gives me about 800 hits daily. It makes the viewer 'motivated' to enter the site. This explains it.

My psychological consultant tells me subliminals in fact DO work.

I really don't want to get in a war of words with you. If you think it works for you, go for it.

Why do cigarettes sell like they do? How do they get new smokers to start? Its their advertising.

I agree and don't want to get into any war or anything..It's just that subliminal advertising is all around us and used thoroughly throughout every different market. Including websites. It should be proof enough to take a look at the cigarette and alcohol companies.

Quote: Originally posted by TFE
Why do cigarettes sell like they do? How do they get new smokers to start? Its their advertising.

This is another subject, but I disagree. Smokers start a lot of times because they want to look cool, fit in, and because of peer pressure. And why do they sell? Because people are addicted to them.

All true, but where does the original image of looking cool come from?

From other people! It's a chain reaction. Here in Canada advertising by cigarette companies is heavily limited - no magazine ads etc. - pretty much all they can do is sponsor big events and that may be going down the drain too. We don't have the camel or the Marlboro man or anything like that and people here still smoke. And I would hardly call mascots like that "subliminal."

TFE, I'd really like to know what's in it for you. Why did you come here and try so hard to convince us all that subliminal messaging works?

I could be wrong, but I don't think anything is really in it for him... From watching this thread I gather that TFE started out posting what was in his opinion information that would help us, and it turned into a bit of a debate. It seems to me that he was just trying to defend his point.

I don't want anything to get out of hand here, so make sure that you remain civil (e.g. no name calling, no flaming)- but I'm also in support of the debate that has been going on, I think it has some valuable information for both sides of the issue.

Yes, thanks Brian. People on here are against subliminal messages, which is good in a way. By looking at both sides of the topic, people may decide what really is best for them and make an informed decision pertaining to their future marketing strategies. Sometimes in the thread the debate seems to really heat up..which is great and it may be hard to believe but I think we all enjoy it. It's webmasters at their best, flexing their intellectual muscles on a certain topic.

Hey, by looking at both sides of the 'debate'. It has helped me optimize my marketing scheme by toning my subliminals down a notch and adding more real content..It has really opened my eyes to new, cleaner strategies worth looking into further.

Thanks.

I don't know - it just seems to me that TFE is trying to sell something to some rather skeptical customers. His posts seem like advertising to me.

Anyway, I do think that it would be pretty hard to use true "subliminial" message on a website. If you think about famous examples from the real world, they are things that are hidden (like songs that turn into satanic lyrics when played backward). On the web everything is so obvious - it's hard to hide anything. Out of curiosity I looked it up in the dictionary - subliminal means "Below the threshold of conscious perception." I can't think of anything you could put on a website that would work here. Maybe using colours to acheive a certain psycological effect, or shapes in the same way (webreview had a good article on that awhile back, but I'm still not sure it would qualify as "subliminal").

I hate to burst in on this discussion, but I just have to put my two cents in. Personally I think many people are taking subliminal too literally, defining 'subliminal messages' too narrowly. It can be as simple as the two f's in that banner; while some people may not think of it as anything that would remind one of sex if you just casually glanced at it, it might. Also, i imagine that the differnt techniques don't work on everybody. There are other things, like shapes and color usage, even the placement of different images or words on a layout that could be used to trigger reaction in a reader's subconcious. The human subconcious is an enigma, and since everybody is different and has different experiences behind them the effects will be different, imho. I don't see why not color usage and spelling and things like that wouldn't be classified as subliminal. However, I don't have any knowledge on the subject besides what I have observed when scrutinizing over differnt types of designs online...

I agree with TFE that sublimnal messages is a powerful tool and technique used by advertisers.

SUBLIMINAL MECHANISM EMBEDS
-- a word, slogan, or symbol inserted faintly -- so faintly it is not perceived -- into advertisements. You cannot pick up a newspaper, magazine, or pamphlet, hear radio, or view television without being assaulted subliminally by embeds.

Perhaps the below link would enlighten or clear most peoples' perception on the techniques of subliminal advertising:

http://innuendocornecopria.com/SUB.htm

"Recent controlled studies have found no evidence that subliminal advertising has any persuasive effect."

From the link NSS provided -- http://innuendocornecopria.com/SUB.htm

Which is my only point -- if you took identical advertising and removed the word "sex" or the kinky icecubes and replaced them with normal icecubes, et cetera, you wouldn't find any difference in the effectiveness of the advertisement.

Pulling on cultural icons, influential trends (perpetuated by peer groups, not advertising) and examing the pervasiveness of the advertisement -- more noise raises awareness of a product, and to our culture at any rate, more awareness means less having to think and evaluate the choices, so people will go with what they "know" or at least what they are familiar with.

To that end, any product that taps into our cultural heritage (most recently Molson Canadian commercials here in Canada) will get the nod. If the imagery and jingle is sufficiently attractive and melodic (also influenced by the AMOUNT it is heard, even if it sucks), then that all helps push the product to the fore front *when a person is choosing to buy*.

But it cannot make someone purchase something they do not already have an interest in. Nor can it make people do things that are not in their character. Seeing alcohol ads doesn't make you start drinking -- seeing alcohol ads and having all your teenaged friends getting drunk and your parents getting drunk, that could. Curiosity about the drink, sure -- the purpose of advertising is to make the product palatable and attractive to the target audience. In the UK, they sell Coffin Nails (cigarettes) that sell very well with teens and those in their early twenties when rebellion and a devil-may-care attitude are prevalent. It's a backlash against surgeon general warnings.

Influence is more than subliminal, but there are sure to be subliminal qualities to any advertisement because we don't live our lives fully conscious of what's around us. So yes, an ad can make us feel more inclined toward something. I was quite taken with the Pontiac Aztek because it looked like my kind of vehicle in the ads, and the people driving it were like me, et cetera. But when I actually SAW one, *poof*. And regardless, I didn't buy it. I went as far as to look for them on the road to see if I was really interested in it.

"subliminal" is a trigger word -- we don't like to be fooled. But we are affected constantly by things we are not consciously aware of: stress in the office, the weather, our diet, the moods of those around us, world issues, tragedies, changes in our life, the neighbour's cooking, et cetera. But when you say "subliminal advertising" it is interpreted as "people trying to control what I do" and at the heart of it, it's crap. They can suggest, attempt to influence all they like, but when it comes down to it, we are the only ones who can make us do anything, and if it's contrary to our ethics, preferences, et cetera, it's not going to happen, no matter how many times you write sex on a picture or try to convince me that that ice cube is really an erotic picture.

Suzanne

"Most people I have conversed with will eventually acknowledge the existence of subliminal advertising, but refuse to believe it has any effect on their buying behavior and especially their sanity." Buchenroth. It's actually quite normal to deny the existance of subliminal advertising but I assure you it's real and it definatly has an affect on the click through rate of any of my banners. Once the click is made it is up to me to make the sale. Subliminals can't achieve that alone.

Check this out - http://killertacticsjournal.com/archive/032201.htm . PS: Not my site! Don't think I am trying to sell you anything. It's just an article I found. I didn't think the CIA would be mistaken when a former agent says it really works.

I still haven't seen a shred of evidence. The site, psychologicaltriggers.com (that would be the one without referrer benefits) that you are pointing to, is chock full of marketing hyperbole. I don't deny the presence of triggers -- lord, those have been documented to death.

In perfect salespitch mode, the "site" doesn't actually give away anything at all. It alludes to many things, makes many promises, and attempts to hornswaggle the consumer, typically, by seeming to answer the question, but never doing so. It promises answers, but doesn't deliver -- only the sale will satisfy the curiosity of the consumer.

And yes, curiosity, or mystery, is a human trigger. We can't resist a mystery, puzzle or trick.

Does this make people buy the book? Probably. People are idiots. We fall for things all the time -- we're gullible. Tricking someone into buying something is what scams are all about. Every ad for "earn money at home stuffing envelopes" ties into a trigger -- being in control of your own life. But is it ethical? Is it long term profitable? No. Once people have been tricked and realize it, they are less likely to fall for the same or similar tricks in the future.

Whereas with more honourable methods of advertising (good product, good service), people come back repeatedly. What good is 800 unique hits and 4 sales when you can have 100 unique hits and 8 sales, plus repeat customers?

Is being able to trick people the same as subliminal advertising? NO. Are circus performers skilled at subliminal advertising? Or do they just weave a compelling tale that only close inspection would reveal the skew and lies? Un hunh.

It's actually quite normal to deny the existance of subliminal advertising but I assure you it's real and it definatly has an affect on the click through rate of any of my banners. Once the click is made it is up to me to make the sale. Subliminals can't achieve that alone.

WHAT? Oh, for pete's sake.

Can you possibly dig up some empirical evidence, PLEASE? I think I've asked enough, and in typical sales fashion, you have done everything but answer the damn question.

Suzanne

Look, I draw my conclusions from experience. Believe me I am sure there are hundreds of articles out there saying subliminals have a positive effect on consumers subconscious. Why do I not bring them into this? It's because the internet is not a trustworthy place and there are many different points of views and different test cases with totally different results. I am not relying on what other people are putting in print but I am relying on what I know to work.

I have been wondering, if subliminals don't work and are so pointless.
Why are some forms of subliminal advertising illegal? Try answering that.

You can throw as many articles our way as you want. It doesn't change anything. I could write my own article on the net so someone like you could pick it up and use it in a discussion as 'proof' as well.

You think your information is all about the experts? I guess my psychological consultant doesn't count? Or my years of experience. Or the ex-CIA agent doesn't have a clue what he is talking about and the US Government just makes laws against forms of subliminal adverstising for no reason. That should be enough proof in itself.

Personal opinion. I think you started this thread not to help, but to convince people to go with your services.

Why is it illegal to pet a squirrel in one town in the US, or to jaywalk. Laws only mean that people at the time the laws were made believed that they were needed. Every article, news item, journal research on the topic says that the law was put into place "just in case". No empirical evidence. It sounds logical, it sounds like something that could be true, but there is no proof. This is something that occurs in human society -- we are idiots. We believe many things on conjecture, without a shred of evidence or else we'd never have mobs, riots, lynch mobs, et cetera.

You can throw as many articles our way as you want. It doesn't change anything. I could write my own article on the net so someone like you could pick it up and use it in a discussion as 'proof' as well.

I have thrown no articles, only asked for proof and read the articles YOU and others have provided and quoted from the evidence allegedly put forth. "Our way" is a trigger designed to get people to side with one party or the other instead of making up their own minds.

Yes you could write an article and I would evaluate it for skew, proof, allegory, anecdotes, as well. Anecdotal evidence (based on your experiences) is not evidence. Empirical evidence is what is needed to prove or disprove something. Not laws, not anecdotes.

You think your information is all about the experts? I guess my psychological consultant doesn't count? Or my years of experience. Or the ex-CIA agent doesn't have a clue what he is talking about and the US Government just makes laws against forms of subliminal adverstising for no reason. That should be enough proof in itself.

Further hyperbole. I am not claiming any expert status except where I actually agree with you. I am saying that there is NO EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE that what you claim is, in fact, true. Skew isn't going to convince me.

The ex-CIA agent -- why is he ex-CIA? What other credentials does he offer. What studies has he conducted and reported on while in the field. I can't evaluate his claims without buying his book, so the point is moot.

Yes, laws are made for poor reasoning all the time. Or what seems to be a good idea at the time, but is later shown to be misguided or even wrong. Which is why laws are continually changing, being added to and repealed. The existance of a law is not proof that subliminal advertising exists/works.

Suzanne

Okay, tell me how I could possibly sell my website designing to a bunch of website designers. It doesn't make sense.

Quote:
Personal opinion. I think you started this thread not to help, but to convince people to go with your services.

Maybe he is, maybe he's not. I haven't seen him actually offer any product as of yet (unless the web site about the book is his, which he says is not true).
Anyway, let's keep on topic here- we're talking about "the psycological side of web sites".

As I said, I haven't seen him actually try to sell us anything as of yet- maybe I'm just missing something, but all I've seen him link to are examples. In fact I don't remember seeing him posting his web site URL here. But again, please let me know if I am wrong!

It's just my gut feeling, Brian, you're right, it's never been overtly stated. That's the fun of subliminal advertising, right Graham? Using conventional marketese (or market-tease if you prefer), he alludes to many wonderful things -- high click through rates, getting your customer to the point of buying. Eventually someone is going to say, hey, G-man, you say you have amazing click-through rates (again, no actual proof of this), how do you do it!? And suddenly G-man is contracting out his knowledge and experience in developing "subliminal advertising campaigns" for other web designers.

As for getting business out of these forums in particular, I have had the opportunity to accept jobs through people I have met here, and I personally (as in am in contact with) know of others who have as well. Developing a reputation amongst designers is one way to get work passed along to you, to get recommendations, et cetera.

Of course, that's just my take on things, but this smells to me of 100% Grade A Marketese. Not only are many things promised but not fully disclosed, direct questions are not answered, and when I make a point, he gets defensive instead of refuting it.

So I have my conclusions.

Suzanne

*sigh* I am outlining the methods of subliminal advertising to be utilized by other webmasters. I am obviously not using them in my statements to sell services. I got that site as a news letter from killer tactics.

If it would make you happy. NOBODY ON THIS FORUM IS ALOUD TO USE ANY OF MY COMPANY'S SERVICES. PLEASE, MY COMPANY IS BS, DON'T USE US. WE HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF ANY EXTREME MARKETING. DON'T BOTHER.

Now, back to the discussion if you will.

Back in the day some movie theatres would flash words such as 'Popcorn' at 300 FPS in order to tempt the viewers into purchasing popcorn. The words wouldn't be recognized by the human eye but the brain would take it in and register it. Giving you a craving for popcorn. It worked so well that's why it has been outlawed. Some theatres would register their profits as rising by 250%. I learned that in a marketing seminar I attended close to a year ago. That is a drastic form of subliminal messaging and highly illegal and all states, if I remember correctly and Canada. Not just some dumb law made in the moment.

Is it subliminal advertising you are against? Or that the human brain can be manipulated?

Quote: Originally posted by TFE
Back in the day some movie theatres would flash words such as 'Popcorn' at 300 FPS in order to tempt the viewers into purchasing popcorn. The words wouldn't be recognized by the human eye but the brain would take it in and register it.

If I remember correctly, didn't the producers of "THE EXORCIST" try something like this, where they would flash demonic images at a very fast rate at random points throughout the movie in an attempt to make the movie more frightening? I think I remember hearing that somewhere.

Quote: Back in the day some movie theatres would flash words such as 'Popcorn' at 300 FPS in order to tempt the viewers into purchasing popcorn. The words wouldn't be recognized by the human eye but the brain would take it in and register it. Giving you a craving for popcorn. It worked so well that's why it has been outlawed. Some theatres would register their profits as rising by 250%. I learned that in a marketing seminar I attended close to a year ago. That is a drastic form of subliminal messaging and highly illegal and all states, if I remember correctly and Canada. Not just some dumb law made in the moment.

One guy did it, turned out to be a publicity stunt, has never been duplicated, replicated (results).

People OVER REACTED to the "experiment" that might not have actually happened. The laws were put into place because people got HYSTERICAL over the idea that they were being manipulated in ways they couldn't tell.

What I object to is people promoting rumour as fact, and especially to people perpetuating hoaxes. I have no issue with the FACT that the human brain can be manipulated (brain washing, cultism, marine/army training) but there are specific things that have to be in place for manipulation to take place, and the "experiment" doesn't have enough controls in it to be able to say conclusively that the word popcorn did anything at all that people buying popcorn didn't have on its own. Did he seed the audience with more popcorn eaters? We don't know.

And that's my point -- it's all conjecture and made up crap, not a shred of replicable evidence.

Suzanne

Bringing this good ol' thread back
Still holds true...

All webmasters should read this

I still think that guy's behaviour was a little odd.

And keep in mind that Suzanne has a background in psychology so she kinda knows her stuff (more than most of us, anyway )

ha, and keep in mind I'm grumpy.

What is your experience in psychology, Suzanne? The subject remains a great interest of mine. I had to flip a coin to decide whether or not to major in it next year (but Physics won ).