Frame Usage

I don't do design, so my opinion shouldn't count for much. But I too have found few sites that use frames well.

I have a personal project I'm currently working on (online chess system) which will use frames. I'm not using frames from a design standpoint, rather the one frame is zero pixels tall. I'll have it continuously refreshing checking for updated content (opponent moved). If there is, I'll have it print some JavaScript to refresh the main frame (the chess board).

"when is it ever to use frames when designing a website?"

when is it easier? either or ...

Frames have their place but better results can be obtained through single page designs. Frames have a few good points, but many bad.
good:
can use one navigation page which is always in view
there are others just can't think of them lol

bad:
can't be bookmarked,
search engines don't like them,
people abuse them and lock them, cutting off the bottom of the left (links) page, very annoying on small screens
takes 3 times as long to load (remember two frames is made up of 3 pages)
etc

iframes are still a type of frame (its a frame inside a page) and again has it pros and cons, one being its not compatible in all browsers.

there are some sites that use frames, and use them well, but not many as frames, like anything have been abused to the point they are frowned upon.

The good points to frames can be utilised without using frames now such as SSI for headers, navigation, etc on every page and makes it easy to change etc. There are just too many cons to frames and as you say most sites that do use them have been done badly!

Fixed navigation can be achieved by using position:fixed in CSS... although, I have so far only seen NS6 and O6 show it correctly. Hopefully, with the next generation of browsers, that should be better supported.

BTW, great to see you're working on the chess program, Mark. Can't wait for a release.

Quote: Originally posted by Renegade
when is it ever to use frames when designing a website?

when is it ever good

Quote: Originally posted by The Webmistress
The good points to frames can be utilised without using frames now such as SSI for headers, navigation, etc on every page and makes it easy to change etc. There are just too many cons to frames and as you say most sites that do use them have been done badly!

You can't use SSI when you don't have access to a server side language, can you? All of the "sites" (courses) I develop at work are done with frames, because we distribute them on CD and therefore can't use SSI for navigation. Although now I'm thinking of trying to get them to switch to Dreamweaver templates but I'm not sure how well that will go over.

And personally, I think they're pretty well designed. Here's an example from my portfolio:

http://www.meganjack.com/mysites/fr196a/
(it's just a sample layout for my portfolio so nothing will work. I didn't do the basic layout, but I did do the two graphics at the top)

Ok, sites on CDs are a different matter and sites can be made without the use of SSI or frames and be better all round IMO. I hate to see scrollbars all over the place on a small screen (even worse when the navigation still scrolls at a large res as well as the main page!)

Well, I think there's a difference between badly done frames and well done frames. Frames are often chosen by people new to web design, because they're not aware of other options. I think this is one of the reasons why they tend to get a bad rap. A page with a few well-done frames can look fine in some cases IMO.

Anyway, as I said in another thread, I think it's important to always keep design options open in the beiginning. Restricting options right from the start seems contrary to the creative process. Frames are usually bad, but not always.

Frames for help sites and local help for applications are often used. And it works WELL like that, because I will need to go through a few index searches or whatever to find the information I need for say, Illustrator, and if it wasn't in frames, I'd be scrolling and going back and getting frustrated.

Perl can be used without having Perl on the client's computer, (perl2exe), but it's a fairly complex solution.

You can use online/CD combinations to get what you want, but then you rely on the people using the CD to have an active Internet connection, which isn't always the case.

I don't see anything wrong with frames and iframes themselves -- as stated (repeatedly), it's the case by case situation that determines whether the use is good or not.

That's a good example, Suzanne, and once you think about it that way many other examples come to mind. Any sort of index or glossary could be done well with frames. You may have, for example, a long list of people or places with related information in a separate frame. Lots of possible uses when you think about it that way.

ok, but what about those sites that have so many frames that when you click on one of their links that it shows up within one of those frames and u have to open in a nwe window instead, i find that quite irritating usually, cause it just screws up the site,

Then blame the person who abused the technology, not the technology itself. Font sizing isn't a bad thing, but people abuse it because it's available all the time. Same with frames. Because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD and it's not the technology in that case, it's the use of it that's bad.

I think it's really really important to make the distinction between the abuse of a technology and the technology itself, even if it's just a set of HTML/XHTML elements.

i actually like frames, but i would always include a frameless version of the site for older browsers.

most the problems with frames could be worked out.

you can solve the problem of sites frames being around your own page with a simple javascript...

if (window != top) top.location.href = location.href;

that should work to keep your site from being viewed in anyone elses frames.

so, if frames have more cons than that of pros, it's still a wonder to me why people use them, i had, at school i had to prove that i could use frames, in a multimedia class and i had a bit of trouble, but got it in the end... to me i find it confusing, i guess to others they find it easier :S

It's like anything, some people like them & some don't, some will find them easy to use & some can't get to grips with them, some will make good use of them & some wont, some designs/layouts work with them & others don't.

hmm yeah good point, i guess that i can say i've seen so far would be http://www.w3c.com at first i didn't realise that they used frames untill i looked at the source code

World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) is w3c.org or w3.org

w3c.com wont load for me, who are they?

WWW Communications Ltd - and IMO not a good use of frames as they have a bottom frame with logos which spoils the flow of the eye IMO. It's easier to spot framed sites on a smaller screen/resolution most of the time as you see the side scroll bar not reaching the top!

yeah sorry The Webmistress,

it was a while ago that i went to that site, :S must have been new or (once again) missed it.

Applications often work best in frames, such as Blogger, which has a number of frames so the tool buttons, the input area, and a sample of previous posts are all visible at the same time. It helps the application work better.

As I said before, don't blame the tool, blame the designer that misuses it.

When I put together my first site, http://members.shaw.ca/jonespm2/PJDigPhot.htm, I liked how frames could be used for navigation. I started it in early 1999. A small extra I placed into the site was the ability for the page to place itself within the proper frame, if the visitor was directed to the page from a search engine. Frames also allowed my site to remember a visitor's preference for external sites, in a new browser window or the same one. For a framed site, it's fairly well behaved.

My new site: http://www.supernaturalwoman.com, does not use frames, and I don't think I'd use frames again without a very good reason.

Peter

yeah, last year i participated in the netguide webchallenge and while looking through the competitors entries once they were availiable, i saw that many had used frames and iframes but of the many of them i saw one that was done by a student who did her subject on chemistry, and they had used an iframe to contain their body information in. It was really good, infact i tried to replicate it but had no luck, i guess suzanne and a few other people were right, frames can b bad but when used effectively, it is really good ... i realise that now