Very Frustrating

Justin: I do post at SP...I've the 3rd most prolific there, I believe.

He has not spammed...they asked for hosting info...they need a host, he said he could supply them with it...how is that spamming?

Cheap tricks? You've got to be kidding me...

By the way...SitePoint Moderators have spoken with him and have no accused him of SPAMMING...that is absolutely the wrong word...he was told that he went slightly over the line with a sales pitch and that he had to simply remove any specific prices from his signature...hardly spamming.

He does over there what he did here: he finds someone who's asking for a service, and if he can provide it, he says so...

EVERYONE does this...if I'm piano teacher and I know someone or find someone who needs lessons...I offer my services.

I've got no reason to support ThinkHost or its admins (I am not a member or anything)... but I haven't seen anything here at TWF that can solidly accuse him of spamming. Perhaps the posts have all been deleted, I don't know, yet the only posts I have seen that I could imagine you are referring to are on the thread where he was asking for advice about what people are looking for in a Web host, which was a perfectly reasonable question. Can someone either point out the offending posts, or explain what I am missing?

Sorry, one more thing I noticed...

Chad said this:
As you and I have both stated, spam is unsolicited advertising. Since you still don't have a clear understanding of spam, let me break down and define those two words for you (man, I hate playing English Teacher!):

unsolicited: Not looked for or requested;
advertising: The activity of attracting public attention to a product or business, as by paid announcements in print or on the air

NOTE: Both definitions taken directly from Dictionary.com

What makes your posts spam is that the users that you spammed on this board didn't request information about your services. They requested information about other firm's services. Unless you are that specific firm or you have been a client of that firm, you have absolutely no right to make a post about your firm. This forum is for consumers to share hosting experiences with consumers - not for hosts to tell consumers about their services

Am I wrong in saying that It doesn't say anything about only being consumer-to-consumer? I don't see that personally...please point me to it if I'm being blind...

Users request info on other firms? Uh, no...they requested info that could help them...IE: "where can I find 100GB of space for $10 a month?"...of course they didn't actually post and say "Can ThinkHost.com offer me what I need?"...but they rarely do! They don't have to request information specifically about him...they asked where they could find a service...Vlad said he could...no problem here.

I don't know about the legal implications or Chad doing this because he's a competitor...doesn't matter to me...all I know is that TWF's definition of SPAM is wacked out. Of course he's biased...WE ALL ARE.

while the technical term for what thinkhost does may not be defined as "Spam", I think its more about the fact that DIDS (DIS?) host TWF, and Chad is an administrator on this board. Now if every thread said something like we need this and that..Im sure Chad would like to reply by saying hey we can give it to you, but he doesn't. This is a form of advertisement. Sure if I say hey, go here, Im with this company and they are satisfy my needs, thats advertisement, but I dont benefit from that advertisement directly. The problem is that thinkhost is using these forums to benefit from the extra business, which I think is a very poor business tactict (sp?). I may be totally wrong as I dont even look at the hosting forums, but this is just my impression over the whole situation.

Ravi

I don't think ThinkHost is to blame.

He may have been a little over the line at SitePoint, but his intentions were good.

At SitePoint, it wasn't SPAM, it was over the line. Same applies here.

I agree with Ravi, he did use the posts to help his business, but he is not alone. Why do we have signatures? To beinfit ourselves by having more traffic website.

I don't think ThinkHost deserves to be punished.

you said it, we have our signatures, so why can't thinkhost leave all his promoting to the signature. Thinkhost is the only member on TWF that directly promotes his sites by posting about it. He does have a signature, just like every other member, and his signature does have his company in there, showing pricing and other things. What more does he want? the whole TWF to sign up with his company?!

hmm....there's a thin line as to where Info Stops and Spam starts.

Ravi

You're right: it's a very thin line...so why did Chad continually state that it blew his mind that ThinkHost was arguing with him? Chad acted like it was OBVIOUSLY spam...not the case...and to me, it wasn't spam at all...

Justin: I've read through the huge threads on the subject and seen a few of his posts, and I'm convinced that it's not Spam...a sales pitch? Perhaps...but a sales pitch that in my opinion was basically requested by someone who posted looking for a webhost..just because he happens to be able to provide those services (and says so), doesn't mean its spam.

Spam is a harsh word, and a serious accusation...I do not think is at all appropriate for the situation...I think your average surfer would take it to mean something far more serious than what Vlad did...

As for most forum users agreeing...I suppose I'll have to take your word, but I doubt many of them heard all the story...and if they did, and still disagree with me, then I have nothing left to say...

Let's not get into a whole nother discussion about this. I remember this from like 2 months ago. It led to us all fighting and stuff. Let's not do this again...

I dont know why but everyone here has a point. I think TWF should be less hostile to other hosts that are not DIDS, but i also think that the other hosts at TWF shouldnt overuse their sales pitch. Both parties are in the blame area, and i belive that we should just leave this as it is, ask thinkhost to return and give eveyone a chance to start again, forgetting what happened before!!

Im not really agreeing or disagreeing with anyone. But I do think that if thinkhost is allowed to post a message promoting his company whenever "he" felt it was appropriate or whenever his company "fit" those needs, what stops the rest of the million hosts on the internet?

fact is I have not seen any other host EXCEPT thinkhost which posts messages on here saying hey come to us (besides whats in a signature), its not just a DIDS employee that posts here, Justin and Brian both own or work for a hosting company (um seen it past and present sigs) and I haven't seen any of them posting saying come to us.

I didnt really keep up with the first time, but it seemed as though that was actually spam.

Ravi

Justin: What, do you think I'm stupid? I've heard it before...sales pitches alone are not a problem when they are in direct response to someone posting about their needs...I could say the same thing about you "getting that through" your head...he didn't post them for no apparent reason, he replied to other people's needs...like I've been saying all along...If thats against the rules then a lot of people are breaking them...the fact that he did it in a certain amount of time is mostly irrelevant to me.

Guys come on, you are both reasonable individauls, lets just start again and keep both of you at the boards, one wathcing the other. You are both good helpers and have lots of knowledge, lets not lose one or the other because the fact is TWF needs you both. If you want ill apologize to thinkhost. I was here when it happened, and i can see why people thought he was spamming. He was replying to toehr peoples request for help.

Justin when i first got here i also spent hours looking to see if anyone needed my help, i wasnt offering any services, but that is because i had not company to offer.

The fact is that if we dotn want TWF downhill from here we have to keep everyone happy, if anyone is pushed out of TWF it is going to reflect badly on us. Lets apologize to all the parties affected and then state CLEARLY the difference between a sales pitch and spam, and all other dodgy topics, that way nobody has an excuse to break the rules!!

Gandhi

I don't really think it is a big deal that ThinkHost had their prices in the signature. If I am not mistaken, Chad had prices in his too a while back...

PLEASE NOTE: I mean no harm by this thread, and lets not have this start into another flame war or fight...

actually Matt, I think you've missed the whole convo. The point is that when promoting your site it should be left to the signature, thats what its for. Noone here has a problem with promoting a site through a signature, the problem is when you reply to messages by saying : Here go check my site out its got when you need :..........

hope you understand that.
Ravi

Yes, you're right, Ravi. I was only talking about the signature though.

I do think it was wrong for what he did, but he seems to be making it up now

I think you guys are making a big deal out of a little thing.

OK, so someone went a little too far. He is sorry. Lets get on with our lives! Instead of debating what someone did, lets get over it and discuss other things.

I second that

hm, we all had "gotten on with out lives" Aidan, it was TWTCommish that came and brought this subject up....not anyone else...

I wasnt involved with this whole thinkhost thing, Im just telling you what I think because TWTCommish asked..

Ravi

lets not go pointing fingers, its over

ok...noone is pointing fingers, someone made a comment, and people replied, and then they say lets just forget about it (when they were the ones who brought it up in the first place). I just think thats really strange.

let people say what they think , it's what makes this board worth coming back too. remember we're "sharing the knowledge :)"

Ravi

Folks,

I just ran across this thread and I am sorry to see that our users have even bothered to start this thread here -- its a pointless argument. TWF is mostly admined by yet another competitor who can't compete, so what else is there to say?

I take a LOT of flak from various individuals running various web hosts who can't compete with us fairly -- the only thing they are asking for is trouble. I posted an extensive thread on SitePoint, but I won't bother doing so here, because its pointless! If DIDS can't do anything but complain about me, let them! Its a pointless, completely pointless argument, and a waste of my time on top of that!

I could start sticking bricks in Chad's mouth, and clearly prove the incompetence involved here, but what good will doing so do us all as a community? From illegal software usage to violation of patents to unfair customer practices -- I can start pounding so many bricks on our competitors here that it won't even be funny, but why bother? There are enough clients to go around, and ultimately it is the top notch web hosts that will walk out the winners, sooner or later. Granted, I hate to see folks hurt by some of our competitors since I do hear far too many horrid stories about some of the things they do, but I am not going to start pounding up DIDS or anyone else -- just make up my mind about certain people and their businesses and move on.

I take pride in fair competition, and I encourage other web hosts here to do the same -- if they can't, thats their loss, and our win -- because in the end, people aren't blind and they will see the truth.

Have a great day, and good luck! Lets end this thread and stop the flaming, because otherwise I will start dropping bricks on people's head -- attacks on my credibility or that of my firm will not be tolerated, and we will strike in retaliation and it won't be pretty. Lets keep a professional attitude here and MOVE ON!

I look forward to posting a lot of useful information and helping people here, just as I do with my own clients.

Sincerely,

Vladislav Davidzon
Senior Systems Administrator -- ThinkHost.Com Web Hosting Services
The smart choice for all your web hosting needs! (tm)
http://www.thinkhost.com

PS I would like however to thank the folks who have stood up for us -- fairness is after all fairness, and I am glad to see that people do agree with some of the things I've said.

[Edited by thinkhost on 07-02-2000 at 01:06 PM]

ok, Chad doesnt promote DIS via messages on TWF.
so when and if your posts are removed because you are directly promoting your company in a message dont complain. I think its only fair that if all the other host have to follow that rule on this board then you should too.
If you can't follow the rules of this board then there are plenty others on the internet....and Im not specifically talking to you.

I dont wanna come across as being harsh, I just think the rules apply to everyone..

Ravi, he understands the rule, all he wants is for nobody to carry this conversation on or it will get ugly, its not a threat its a prediction, just stop already

Good afternoon,

My problem isn't with Chad, my problem is with the fact that a web host is allowed to moderate a web hosting forum. His problem in turn, is the fact that I am a competitor his company can't beat by a long shot, so he turns to low-profile hits like deleting my posts and flaming me without cause or need.

If I or another member is out of line, correction is in order, but NOT a correction by a competitor -- I can not accept that because thats a clear and definite bias.

Thanks for your time.

I know thinkhost understands the rule DoubleOK, its TWTCommish who doesnt, which is why he posted this thread. Which is why I posted. I dont have any beef with Thinkhost, frankly what goes on between him and Chad isnt any of my concern, but what you dont seem to understand DoubleOK is that TWTCommish started this thread as a new member of TWF and the other members are trying to help him understand why the situation was treated the way it was..its not that hard to understand. Im not going after Thinkhost, Im explaining the situation.

Ravi

ok then, give twtcommish some tiem to read this thread then, everything will then be sorted

sure , you wont even let my name stay up for more then like a few minutes! argh

I just used this thread to get my post numbers up anyway :eek:

Justin,

No spamming took place, and if more accusations are made I will turn this over to our legal team who are going to have a field day on this. Or the other alternative is for me to start asking pointed questions about the hosts that post here -- for example, RSA patent violations on certain web hosts' servers, among others.

Wake up and smell the roses pal -- you are asking me to SPAM the users. They asked for a reply here, they got a reply here, nothing more to discuss. ICQ'ing or e-mailing them is SPAM -- unsolicited commercial advertising!

I do apologize for being borderline, but that was a LONG time ago, so MOVE ON, or face the long and irritating discussions that will likely break the entire TWF apart. I don't want to see that happen -- this is a good community, with a very minor fault that needs to be fixed -- the fault I am referring to is a competitor who moderates a forum where competitors post.

[Edited by thinkhost on 07-02-2000 at 01:50 PM]

a) he could have e-mailed the individual offering his services

Wouldn't emailing the individual offering his services be considered spam? The people he replied to were looking for a reply in the forums, so an email directly to that person would therefore become unsolicited. Correct?

Hmm... looks like ThinkHost answered my question while I was still previewing it! Does anyone disagree with this?

hm Thinkhost, why cant you leave your company to promoting itself. word of mouth actually works wonders. If you have what people want, they will come to you regardless, you dont need to shove it down anyones throat (figuritively speaking). and I dont know why you're threatening legal issues, lawyers cost up to $350 an hour, even if you have your "own" team, and dont threaten any legal action when only words are involved (which it seems to be here).

and Thinkhost, if you have not realised now, but because of you STEFEN moderates the Hosting forum, he IS NOT EMPLOYEED FOR, OR AFFLIATED WITH any hosting company. Chad does not specifically moderate ANY Forum he is an administrato and I have also seem him active in many other forums beside the hosting one.

spam or not, you violated TWF's service, you may not admit to SPAM but you did violate the TOS. Face it, its water under the bridge, whats done is done lets not dwell on the past. The posts involved have been deleted, everyones happy, so lets move on ok. Everyone's learned a lesson, just remember it when posting in the future.

Ravi

argh! and why can thinkhost edit his messages but not me!?!? grrrrr am I missing something or is vB screwed up?

Ravi

Howdy,

No spamming occured, period. This has been proven, time, after time, after time. I was promoting our services, but it was not spam -- BIG difference there.

I want Chad to stay away from editing ANY posts on the web hosting thread -- if need be, I can help find people who will help moderate the forum, but a web host should NOT be allowed to moderate a web hosting forum.

Have a great day, and good luck!

Hi,

By the way I am keenly aware about how much lawyers cost -- law happens to be a MAJOR hobby of mine. Words do mean a LOT, especially when words are libelous and damaging to one's reputation.

well then it looks like you and Chad have to do some compromising. Competition is suppose to be good, not bad.

i agree with Bob, threatening legal action is very sad, just because law is a HOBBY (note: not a career), doesnt mean that you can go around saying im gonna sue, sue for what? TWF isnt a company, nor does it profit from anything posted here, you cannot sue something when there is no money involved (ie someone making profit from bad mouthing your business).

I know this thread is getting heated, but lets keep it civil, threatening legal action is sad..

Ravi

Bob,

My signature is my right -- given to me by this forum, mind you! The slogan is our slogan, and if you don't like it, well I am very sorry, but not much I can do

Sure the moderators could ban me, or the users that post here about us -- but I doubt that they want to do that, mainly because of our influence over the overall market and the impression that would give of them. I also think that after reading some of my posts in the other forums they'd think three times because a member like myself could potentially be EXTREMELY valuable to the growth of the overall forum -- I don't think you find people with my background, experience, and knowledge every day and they still haven't banned me because JP understands that my feedback and information that I can relay to other members is extremely valuable -- aside from the fact that banning me would cause a major uproar from their own users because it would be unfair and unbased.

I am a member of this forum as much as you are -- so why not randomly ban you? That would be just as good and just as unfair -- because I have done nothing wrong. Nothing, zero, zip, zulch. I refused to spam users by e-mailing them unsolicited advertising? Is that a crime? I don't think so.

Now what I am asking is that Chad be forbidden from editing, deleting or in any way modifying posts in either the web hosting or the web server forum because of his obvious bias. Is that so hard? I have nothing against him, but I don't like his bias.

-Vladislav

Ravi,

I am not interested in pursuing this by legal means in any way shape or form -- it would be a waste of my time and money. Also, legally, TWF is not responsible for their member's posts -- this has been ruled on several times already. However, if certain users try to libelously destroy our undeniably strong reputation, we will have no other choice. I sincerely hope it doesn't come to that.

I am VERY interested in finding a middle common ground where our competitors will cut the flaming to the minimum, and do what they're supposed to do -- get tough and compete with us, as tough as that may be.

The whole problem here is that a web host is allowed to admin a web hosting forum, a web host that shows his bias in everything!

-Vladislav

This has probably already been said, but...

I don't see anything wrong with ThinkHost. It didn't seem like spam to me, and does it matter if it was? They have a great service. Why not forget the whole thing. It's in the past and we can't change it.

---------------
Stuart Briscar
gaming-forums.com (coming soon)

Stuart, have you been here for the whole situation ? From the start (Not the start of this thread). If not then I seriously dont think you understand what has been going on..

the posts which were considered spam have obviously been deleted, so how could you determine whether it was spam or not!?

Jeez, I was so use to the edit/delet being at the top of the post I didnt know it was at the bottom
Ravi

[Edited by Ravi Pachai on 07-02-2000 at 03:34 PM]

Yes I have been here for the whole situation and I don't see anything wrong like I said. I am sure I have people to back me up!

---------------
Stuart Briscar
gaming-forums.com (coming soon)

new name? or why are you just posting a message.

I have had an account for about 5 months but I just forgot about it so I made a new one recently. Can I ask you what you think is wrong about this issue? I don't have time to go back through the whole thread.

---------------
Stuart Briscar
gaming-forums.com (coming soon)

ok for the millionth time. I think its wrong for ANY HOST, not just Thinkhost to directly promote his service by saying we have what you want. Every hosting company believes they have what you want, it would be terrible to have 60 hosts reply to every thread Hey we have what you want go to oursite http://www.myhostingsucks.com . As I said before, Thinkhost isnt the only host that is a member of these forums, yet he IS the only host that goes , hey we have what you want.

No company should use any sort of public (free) advertisement for the benefit of himself (through the company). What he did was against the TOS at TWF. Whether its spam or not, I dont care, his posts were dealt with in the right manner. Thinkhost posts werent the first to be removed, and Im very positive they wont be the last. He took it on a very personal level, if you dont follow the TOS then expect your posts to be removed. its not that hard to understand, TWF ISNT the only forum to enforce their rules. So dont get mad at the admins for maintaining the community, whether you're with or against Thinkhost.

Hope you understand now,
Ravi

Can't you people get over with it? I am tired of debating this, it is going nowhere.

The same points are being made over and over, which is useless. I am here to make my site better, not determine who did what and if anyone did wrong.

Lets just close this topic and get on with our happy little lives. I am sure all of us have better things to do than this.

if you're tired of it then dont read it, nor post. whats so hard to understand about that ? people obviously do have things to say about it, and I guess you'll just have to deal with that.

spawngamer specifically asked what was wrong, and he got an answer. That has nothing to do with you, whether you read it or not is totally your choice, but dont knock someone else for answering a question

Ravi

I wasn't knocking anyone.

I care about the TWF Community, even though I am new here. This argument is tearing us apart. From the looks of it, some people are mad at thinkhost, some are mad at me, some are mad at Ravi, etc. I don't like this one bit.

Can't we all just get along?

actually, noones mad with you, I dont think anyone's mad with me? im not mad with thinkhost(im not mad with anyone). The resolution of the problem lies between thinkhost and chad. I hardly think Chad will stop moderating any forum as he is an admin, but thats up to him. Some people didnt understand the problem, some people have different issues, this thread is just allowing people to post how / what they feel. I hardly think TWF survival is dependent on the outcome of this thread...

Ravi

Folks,

I was out of line several months ago, and I apologized. My actions WERE defined as SPAM by the definitions of the forum, but not by the general internet standards. So accusing me of SPAM is completely incorrect -- I was simply mislead because the forum had MANY unanswered posts, and many other posts had blatant advertising in what later turned out to be signatures. I apologized for the incident and we moved on, but our friendly competitors just can't do that -- they gotta bite every little bit they get!

Who the heck cares what happened months ago? My point is that here and now Chad Simper should NOT have the power to modify/edit/delete posts in the web hosting forum and most certainly should not be moderating the

Why are we making such a huge deal out of this? Get an unbiased person in those two forums, tell Chad to keep to his business and MOVE on.

Or is someone arguing with me that biased moderators aren't a good idea?

[Edited by thinkhost on 07-02-2000 at 04:54 PM]

Well now I have about 15 less posts then I did a few minutes ago. I just deleted all my comments in this posts. Why? Because I'm tired of the legal threats, as well as the patent threats (something about using OpenSSL). So this is the last post you'll see from me in this thread. I'm fucking pist at what's happened, so that's why I'm not going to incourage it anymore.

I'd advise the admins to close this and all ThinkHost related threads ASAP.

Okay, first of all: Justin, CALM DOWN!

IMO this thread should be DELETED. All the major problems with ThinkHost were a couple of months ago.

Lets just forget it and move on, this should have NEVER been opened in the first place.

Justin... language.

Like I said earlier. We already argued about this a few months ago so why do we go on? No one else post and hopefully everything will clear up itself.

Thank you Matt.

Deleting it isn't going to make the problem go away. Sure, it'll look great for a little while, but someone is bound to hear something about what happened and start up another thread about this down the line.

IMHO, if we are to try to resolve this and avoid starting this argument again, people need to come to terms right now and address the issue rather than ignore it and have it come back several months from now.

Oops, sorry about the language I thought it would get **** out. Guess not Oh well, I'm calm. Cool. And calm. Yeah...

I'm affraid that this has got out of hand again. We addressed all the aspects in meticulous detail last time round and ai really don't want ot go through it again...

I'm closing this thread not because I want to stop you guys expressing yourselves but because it just serves to cause friction that is frankly pointless as besides this issue we all get along well...

I will obviously continue to monitor threads in the hosting forum and depending on developments there will address the situation as it required.

cheers
JP

I have opened this thread briefly to make a post because I feel one is needed.

This was discussed in detail when all this happened and if you weren't there to see what happened, you really aren't up to speed.

TWTCommish, you were not around when the posts that were deleted were made... If you were, you would probably have a different look on things. Whether you would or not, I don't know. What I do know is that the posts that thinkhost made were considered spam according to the rules of TWF and they were deleted at the time. He made a big deal out of it because he believes companies should be able to post which would just clog the forums.

Thinkhost, your posts just make me laugh... Thanks!

I really do hope everyone can settle down about this. I meant no harm by erasing thinkhost's posts in the beginning but it is obvious that if he doesn't get his way, he is determined to do anything to cause a problem.

The point still stands though that his original posts (the ones that happened to months ago) were spam. They weren't deleted because he was a competitor (you can easily do a search and find that other hosts have posted in this forum without having their posts removed - the difference being that they aren't blatantly advertising their services).

I'm sorry that this has caused such a problem.