Spam

My apologies to everyone... I am going to kind of make this thread a documentation of this incident, so that the people I have contacted have it for easy reference.

Until I can get in contact with JP, I am handling this situation.

Following are the threads in this forum that were spammed by user 'thinkhost':

http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000283.html
http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000255.html
http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000258.html
http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000288.html
http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000227.html
http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000250.html
http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000245.html
http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000226.html
http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000281.html
http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000274.html
http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000230.html
http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000195.html
http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000241.html
http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000039.html

In a bizarre twist to the whole thing, I was contacted via ICQ by this individual just a minute ago with a threat to be sued for libel! He said

quote:There is nothing to bark up about, you are falsely accusing me of spam.
at no point in time did I spam anyone, and I will pursue legal action against your firm for unfair business as well as libel should damage be done to my company as a result of your accusations.

No where on your board does it say that I can not reply to requests for INFORMATION. I did not AGREE to any such terms. I posted in a public forum. You want to argue go ahead, but you will be arguing with my attorneys.

Then, he said

quote:I was replying to VALID client inquiries. Nothing more. NO WHERE on your forum does it say that you do not allow that. No where. absolutely not
that is NOT a part of your agreement.

So, what does everyone else think about this incident? Just curious if you think I acted appropriatly, or did this user indeed spam the forums?

And, did I "falsely accuse him" of spamming?

------------------
TWF Administrator

Looking for Web Hosting Services?
Dynamic Internet Solutions : http://www.dids.com
Windows NT and UNIX Hosting ($9.95 - $399.95), Dedicated Servers, and Co-Location Programs

[This message has been edited by Chad Simper (edited 09 April 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Chad Simper (edited 09 April 2000).]

I don't think it's spamming at all, if you call that spamming, you advertising www.dids.com is also. Freedom of the net and forums is the beauty of the whole internet deal. Get a life TWF administrator, rather than spending time fighting off competitions. : )

Hi,

Well, I think you did what was right. In your register form it says:

"Please note that advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, and <b>solicitations</b> are inappropriate on this BB."

So I guess that means you have the right to delete his messges and mark that as spam..

You're right... He posted 17 + messages to this forum, all advertising his company. If he doesn't have valuable info to add, and just wants to advertise his company, he shouldn't be here. Spamming refers to sending unsolicited email or posting unsoliced advertising, and I think that is what he did here. Specifically, his post in the Hosts- The Good and the Bad forum titled "Web Host Looking For Resellers [Free Account]" is SPAM. It specifies very clearly in the posting criteria in that forum that that type of thing is not allowed. He's also putting down other hosts in various threads, including ADDR and Cedant. I personally have never been with these companies, and I don't know if he has, but I doubt it.... so he probably shouldn't be making negative comments about them, either.

However, I'm not sure if he was _intentionally_ doing this. If he thought he was allowed to post messages such as that and he genuinely thought he was responding to a customer inquiry or alerting people of a valuable service, then I would not be against giving him a second chance, after making clear that these types of posts are not allowed.

Brian

quote:Originally posted by blah:
I don't think it's spamming at all, if you call that spamming, you advertising www.dids.com is also. Freedom of the net and forums is the beauty of the whole internet deal. Get a life TWF administrator, rather than spending time fighting off competitions. : )

In response to this, Chad has never actually posted a message purely advertising his company (to my knowledge). His only form of advertising is his signature, which IS allowed at TWF.

Brian

------------------
Web Design - Hosting - Promotion - Programming
InfoStar Web Design - Click Here!

HAHA! I needed that. Man, some people won't admit it or get it through their head. HAHA.

Night.

------------------
Adam Lysne
[email protected]

What makes it SPAM more than anything else is replying to 15 or 20 posts, whatever the amount was, with, in effect, the same brief message worded differently, looking for customers.

I wouldn't think twice about using a host that has to advertise on forums to gain customers anyway.

Although it may seem awkward, I don't disagree with Chad's approach to handling the issue especially when considering documentation purposes. It may not seem pleasant to thinkhost, but as far as business damages, the Gentleman should have considered this consequence before using a community forum as a marketing tool. The intention is clear. The "supplying information" does not hold water, if you will.

Well, if someone is looking for a host, I think it's perfectly fine for host to introduce themselves to the person. A few "self-recommend" posts is fine to me.

But if the host does it very often, I would think it's spam.

------------------
Goodbookmarks.com - Tired of search engines returning links with no content or bad design? Then GoodBookmarks.com is your solution. All sites listed have at least a decent design and rich in content. And most importantly, they're all worth a BOOKMARK.

Thank you everyone for the support. I never once thought I did something incorrectly, but I wanted to know if you guys thought otherwise

Jackchen,

Although you don't think making one or two posts saying "we are a host - use us" is fine, what happens when you have 10,000 hosts saying that?!?! The title of this forum is "Hosts - The Good and the Bad" ... Hosts can't judge themselves, can they? This forum has nothing to do with hosts posting, *unless* the post is *specifically* asking the host to post or *unless* the host is giving *genuine* help to a question.

Brian and Blah (thinkhost),

I have never blatantly spammed any forum. The only time my host has been directly referenced in one of my posts (not in the signature) on any forum is when I was replying in regards to a question directly related to my hosting company. As a host, I deal with spam all the time, and it just makes me sick! I hate the real spam now!

Also, even if this guy wasn't posting the spam messages _intentionally_, should we just give him a break? Especially when both the agreement at registration and the "Posting Criteria" for this forum are there that specifically state he can't do what he did? Would we than have to give all the other spammers a break?

Anyway, thanks everyone for the replies. This is an interesting topic - just to hear what others think and feel about spam

------------------
TWF Administrator

Looking for Web Hosting Services?
Dynamic Internet Solutions : http://www.dids.com
Windows NT and UNIX Hosting ($9.95 - $399.95), Dedicated Servers, and Co-Location Programs

Yeah, I was surfing last night and saw all those posts. I agree that it's spam 100%. I also agree that DIDS or Chad has never spammed TWF.

------------------
Flame Hosting: www.flamehosting.com
Justin Stayton (President/CEO)
[WEB SITE] www.flamehosting.com
[E-MAIL] [email protected]
[ICQ] 45549000

I consider the signatures just that, an identification of who we are and whom we work for. Responding to a large amount of messages saying that the best solution would be to sign-up with “blah blah” is simply unauthorized advertisements for ones personal/business gain. I have never seen Chad, Brian, or any of the other “regulars” who have signatures with hosting or web design services blatantly suggest using their company.

The beauty of this forum is the non-commercial look at web design. No banner adds, no corporate sponsors, no advertising from companies like all the other web hosting forums and user groups.

------------------
Adam
AIS Internet Solutions
[email protected]
www.aisinternet.com

Users who do not want to help others, just advertise their services should be asked to leave.

------------------
Adam
AIS Internet Solutions
[email protected]
www.aisinternet.com

Good evening,

I'd like to thank Chad Simpler for giving me an opportunity to explain myself and to rebute the accusations that have been made against me and my company. This post is meant to explain the incident and clear up any misunderstandings that have occured.

I would like to start by apologizing to anyone whom my posts may have offended in any way, shape or form -- this was never meant to happen. As someone who wears several hats of a systems administrator, senior business partner, and a law student, I have several very obvious interests in this case, both from the ethical as well as the legal standpoint. I must also make it very clear that my firm and I have a very strong record for strongly opposing and fighting unsolicited commercial advertising, commonly known as spam, something that I never expected to be accused of today, as it was never my intention to spam anyone, and I believe there is a clearcut difference between spam, which is by definition unsolicited and solicited advertising and information.

This post is the first in a series of two posts which I will be making tonight. Please refrain from replying to the first one until I've had a chance to finish writing the second, more important discussion post.

First lets start by taking a look at the key facts in this case:
[From this point forth I will refer to each fact as Point A-D in the discussion that follows].

Point A -- On Saturday, April 8th I ran across this forum which appeared to be a very non-biased independently owned web design forum, which did not appear to be related by any means to any specific hosting company.

Point B -- After browsing through the posts I quickly came to realize that there were quite a few potential clients who were specifically asking to be referred to hosts or were asking for recommendations of hosts. I was extremely surprised to see that posts were often left unanswered.

Point C -- I registered for the forum, and agreed to the rules, policies and disclaimers page which stated "Please note that advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, and solicitations are inappropriate on this BB."
To me that clearly meant no spamming -- there was no question about that whatsoever.

Point D -- I replied to the following posts which specificallyU asked for services which my firm offers:
http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000255.html
http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000258.html
http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000227.html
http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000250.html
http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000226.html
http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000281.html
http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000274.html
http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000230.html
http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000195.html
http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000039.html

Point E -- I replied to several posts about competitors, and my true experiences with them.
http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000283.html
http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000245.html
http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000241.html

Point F -- I posted the following post, which is indeed borderline spammish, but not directly spam, as I will explain in the discussion which follows the facts.
http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000288.html

Point E -- Later the same day I return to the site to find this thread, which accused me of spamming, which was at no point in time my intent.
http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000289.html

Point F -- I contacted Chad Simper over ICQ, and the following conversation took place. I realize that parts were quoted by Chad Simper, however for all intents and purposes of this message it is important that no information be taken out of context as I believe parts may have been in his previous post.
-- Subpoint 1: Vladislav: Do you want a lawsuit for libel on your hands?

-- Subpoint 2: Chad Simper:: Sir, you do not want to bark up this tree.

-- Subpoint 3: Vladislav: There is nothing to bark up about, you are falsely accusing me of spam. at no point in time did I spam anyone, and I will pursue legal action against your firm for unfair business as well as libel should damage be done to my company as a result of your accusations. [Blank line removed at this point]
No where on your board does it say that I can not reply to requests for INFORMATION. I did not AGREE to any such terms. I posted in a public forum. You want to argue go ahead, but you will be arguing with my attorneys.

-- Subpoint 4: Vladislav: the matter of fact is that you are providing false advertising and misleading information to ALL of your visitors, and if you are located in the US, that is ILLEGAL.

-- Subpoint 5: Chad Simper: Well, if you don't consider that to be spam, I don't know what is. You can threaten me and my firm all you want. You will have to realize three things first of all: [Blank line removed at this point]
1) I am the one you will be sueing, not my firm. My firm is not the one administerating the forum, I am.
2) I am not the owner of the forum. I am only acting upon my duties as the administrator of the fourm.

-- Subpoint 6: Chad Simper: 3) The proper people have already been contacted about this and they too agree that this was spam.

-- Subpoint 7: Chad Simper: Now than, unless you didn't make those posts (which were signed with your name), I have nothing else to say. I look forward to any and all lawsuits you wish to bring up. You will be filing a lawsuit against a number of other companies besides myself though, including UUNet.

Point G -- I e-mailed my upstream providers notifying them of the incident, cc'ing [email protected]. Due to the length of the e-mails, I won't post them here unless they are specifically requested and someone feels they are important to establishing the facts. They were pretty much a summary of what is written in this post.

Point F -- This morning, I e-mailed Chad Simper requesting to have the ban reinstated. That particular e-mail conversation follows.

Chad,

Thank you. I am currently in a middle of a very important paper I am writing on Internet Privacy issues, and as soon as I finish that I will be thrilled to write a very long and detailed response to all the issues involved, ranging from advertising to spam, to freedom o

Hi, I'm a friend of thinkhost, but don't get me wrong, I think spams are horrible, and I've participated in too many different kinds of forums. Private forums are yes, controlled by the administrator, but what is the difference between indirect "advertising" and direct? One is annoying, and the other is not? I agree that advertising under signature isn't too "horrible," but it's just as annoying as any other direct advertising. However, this is WMF's forum, so he can say what's spam and what's not. But I don't think WMF administrator needs to contact others outside of this forum about this incident, because the premises that the WMF administrator controls is this forum, nothing outside of it. I support the idea of banning thinkhost, if the WMF administrator thinks he's spamming, but e-mailing others outside the premises of the forum itself is just low and harsh, as I find indirect advertising under signatures just as annoying. (why can't everyone use signatures for a good use, like favorite quotations and such).

>>I consider the signatures just that, an identification of who we are and whom we work for. Responding to a large amount of messages saying that the best solution would be to sign-up with “blah blah” is simply unauthorized advertisements for ones personal/business gain. I have never seen Chad, Brian, or any of the other “regulars” who have signatures with hosting or web design services blatantly suggest using their company.
The beauty of this forum is the non-commercial look at web design. No banner adds, no corporate sponsors, no advertising from companies like all the other web hosting forums and user groups.>>

the style of indirect advertising under signatures versus recommendation of one's own business isn't that far off. Yes, signatures are identification of one, and it can be used differently. If signatures are what makes u proud of something, administrator of such and such site, why not express it in forums? I know most of you peep probably support the WMF administrator, I do in a way, but when i found out he e-mailed others outside of this "forum," that just totally ticked me off. He has a right to call it spam, in his forum, but not outside of it.

oops, my mistake, TWF administrator. : ) not WMF.

Blah,

Your opinions are very much valid and appreciated.

The difference between a blatant spam as a post and simple signature is that the post gets read and the signature doesn't. Those who read my posts probably read the signature for the first time and don't read it after that (a lot of regulars probably haven't realized that I recently changed my signature recently because they don't pay that much attention to it). On the other hand, a post is read - that is what they click the link to do - read a post. When it is only an advertisement, people don't want to read it.

Honestly, I don't read many signatures. I read Rob's because I know they have cool quotes, but I can't remember reading many other signatures.

TWF isn't a free advertising board. If you make a valid post with help, you deserve to post a signature which promotes your company or yourself - whatever you like. If all you are going to do is make a post to say your company is there, it is spam.

My contacting outside sources was probably overkill, but thinkhost's methods provoked me too. If he would have only posted one or two spam messages, I would have deleted them and contacted him about it. However, he spammed the forum with 10+ messages, which I just consider to be rude. Any person in this industry has to know what spam is, and the consequences that come with it.

------------------
TWF Administrator

Looking for Web Hosting Services?
Dynamic Internet Solutions : http://www.dids.com
Windows NT and UNIX Hosting ($9.95 - $399.95), Dedicated Servers, and Co-Location Programs

>>My contacting outside sources was probably overkill, but thinkhost's methods provoked me too. If he would have only posted one or two spam messages, I would have deleted them and contacted him about it. However, he spammed the forum with 10+ messages, which I just consider to be rude. Any person in this industry has to know what spam is, and the consequences that come with it.>>

Hi! I'm glad everyone's so polite here (i've been in some really rude ones). The way I see it, thinkhost didn't have the intention of spamming, but the thing i don't understand, is why did you wait until he posted 17+ messages, then made a huge reaction about it? You said one or two messages are alright, but why not contact him when he made the third? i know it's kinda impossible to track down every posts of each person, unless you start to see a great number of "patterned" posts. If you didn't tell thinkhost of what may result in posting more than 1-2 messages about his site, you shouldn't set a trap of somesort (you obviously didn't do it on purpose), and let him go on and on for 17+ messages, you see the pattern, and you contacted the outsiders without giving a warning of anysort. Yes, the policy says advertising and such are banned, but unless you give a definition of spamming, which i'm sure there are different versions of spamming (since internet laws are just so weak), you should of given thinkhost a warning (probably should of at his 3rd post), rather than reacting upon his 17th post, he not knowing it's actually spamming, then react harshly upon it. In a real-life experience, if a person did something once or twice w/o lectured by the society or whoever, he/she is going to keep doing it until someone tell him/her that it's not right. If you have given thinkhost a warning at his 3rd post or something, and he kept on posting his site, yes, contacting outside of the forum is right. But not when you waited until his 17th or so posts, and then react with an extreme case of.."he posted 17 messages!!!"

oops, i wanted to attach a smilie face on that previous message. hehe.

Blah,

I think what you don't understand here is that thinkhost made the 17 posts in 1.5 hours total... I can't monitor this board 24 hours a day, nor can anyone else. We (all three administrators) try to monitor it regularly, and I just so happen to be the one that was here first, after thinkhost's birage of messages.

That's the point, I didn't have time to notify him after his second post - his third was just minutes later. Even if I would have caught him in the act, I wouldn't have been able to get in touch with him until he was done.

I guess that is the reason I acted the way I did with thinkhost - the fact that he made so many spam posts in such a little amount of time. Anyone that deals with the Internet in the way that a host does (like thinkhost) *must* know the definition of spam. I find it hard to believe that thinkhost still does not feel that he spammed this board more than once. Everyone of his posts, that I can find, is a form of spam.

------------------
TWF Administrator

Looking for Web Hosting Services?
Dynamic Internet Solutions : http://www.dids.com
Windows NT and UNIX Hosting ($9.95 - $399.95), Dedicated Servers, and Co-Location Programs

Good evening,

This is the post two, the discussion of the facts that I have presented in my previous post. In this post I hope to clearly rebute the accusations made by Chad Simper and the Webmaster Forums, and prove my innocence in this case, as well as push forth a discussion about the ethical and legal issues surrounding this case.

I would like to once again apologize to anyone whom my posts may have offended in any way, shape or form -- and reiterate that this was never meant to happen, and it was never my intent.

Discussion of Point A:
----------------------
Let us start by looking at point A of my previous post. The Webmaster Forums, to most any visitor such as myself clearly appears to be a non-biased privately-held commercial [judging by the .com ending] discussion forum, which appears to thrive itself on the freedom of those posting. Unless [and even if] one looks at the whois record, it is not clear that the forum is associated with any specific hosting firm.

-- Assumption 1 [RE: Point A]: The forum is a privately owned, moderated discussion forum, with an unbiased focus. The moderators have the [semi-questionable, under the first amendment] right to ban any individual who is disruptive of the forum and interferes in its day-to-day operations, at the moderator's discretion.

Discussion of Point B:
----------------------
As I have stated in Point B, the forum appears to have a very high number of unanswered posts, many of which directly ask for services which my firm provides. Almost all of the other answered posts contain replies from competitors, almost ALL of which are followed by signatures advertising the hosts.

-- Claim 1 [RE: Point B]: The signature is a part of the post. Whether its stored in the system and reused, or whether its typed up every time, it is still just as much a part of the post as anything else. Just because it doesn't go in the middle or at the top of the post makes no difference -- it still becomes a part of that post.

-- Claim 2 [RE: Point B]: If the signature is indeed a part of the post, then ANY firm who replies to any post is indeed advertising their services. Thereby, this also makes for the argument that any host that starts a discussion could reasonably be considered to be unsolicitly advertising their services. Furthermore, this also makes for the argument that any host that replies to any post unrelated to their service is indeed spamming -- as that advertising is unsolicited.

Discussion of Point C:
----------------------
The key problem which started this whole issue is that the forum moderators do not realize that in order to make their visitors aware of the ways in which the forum needs to be ran, they need to include ALL guidelines set up in the forum registration agreement.

While I agree that the moderators have the right to decide what can and can not be done, they have absolutely no right to attempt to use outside force in order to moderate their own forum, beyond simply banning the individual -- and this is clearly proven by the fact that my upstream providers obviously have disagreed with the claims made by Chad Simper. The moderators are indeed [although probably not purposely] guilty of misleading the readers and visitors by not clearly posting the guidelines in the agreement.

-- Claim 1 [RE: Point C]: The "Posting Criteria" are not a part of the agreement, but are rather merely a request from the moderators, a request that they have every right to make, but also a request that they *MUST* post in such a place where it can be reasonably found and read by anyone who posts BEFORE they post, without having to specifically look for it. There are simply waay too many places this sort of a request can be hidden, and in this case it was by NO means visible, as proven by the fact that I missed it.

-- Claim 2 [RE: Point C]: By providing this forum, the moderators and administrator allow the end-users to ask questions and request to be contacted by advertisers. By not posting a clear and visible ban on hosts replying offering their services, which does NOT qualify as spam [which is by definition unsolicited advertising] the TWF admins and moderators are clearly [although probably not purposely] misleading both the end-user as well as the host, resulting in incidents such as this.

-- Claim 3 [RE: Point C]: The moderators, by encouraging direct contact of the end-users by the hosts are encouraging the true unsolicited advertising, aka spam as well as encouraging violations of the most basic internet etiquette. The posts requesting services are made on the forum, and the end-user is thereby asking the replies to be made to the forum, unless their post specifically asks for contact by e-mail

-- Need For Action Request [Re: Claim 3 RE: Point C]: If the moderators and administrators wish not to mislead the end-users and the host reps posting on the forums, the moderators and administrators must clearly ban all requests for host services to reply to the end user. Assuming the claim made by Chad Simpler that any host can not judge their own service [which may not be entirely true], the moderators must also ban any Host Representative from posting on the forum. Obviously the more reasonable action would be to stop any and all advertising -- that includes signatures. If the forum is indeed to remain unbiased, then the moderators must not use their positions to gain clients.

Discussion of Point D:
----------------------
There ten of the seventeen total posts made [the ten discussed in Point B] were NOT spam. Sure they may have been a little annoying because of their frequency, but if frequency is the problem, then frequency needs to be adddressed by issuing a simple ban on everyone against posting more than say five posts or replies at a time.

Claim 1 [RE: Point D] -- The key fact here is that this was not spam -- spam by definition is unsolicited advertising. These posts were direct responses to client inquiries, inquiries which specifically asked for replies. This was fully legit, requested advertising. In the end this is the best kind of advertising there is -- open market responses to open market inquiries by the client, a market ran by supply and demand. These weren't posts made out of nowhere, these weren't fliers or TV ads the end users didn't want -- this was a clear cut case of a Host Representative assisting a potential client.

The only thing I admit being guilty of for this section is not reading the hidden terms listed in the "Posting Criteria" -- but this once again provides the flame to the Need For Action Request [RE: Claim 3 RE: Point C] made previously. This is clearly an issue that the administrators and moderators need to address.

Discussion of Point E:
----------------------
These posts were replies to inquiries on the behalf of the end-user for information about specific hosts. I have had experiences with both of these and I replied saying so. The forum administration unneededly and wrongly attacked me for attacking competition, which was not true by any means. If you read carefully, you will see that my post about SkyNetWeb was positive and SkyNetWeb does provide some of the same services that my firm does. They happen to be a partner of my firm, but that is irrelevant to this case, simply because if I was indeed out to flame competitors [which is obviously untrue] I would have flamed everyone, including SkyNetWeb.

The fact of the matter is that these posts were a part of my contribution to the forum, and also a right given to me by the First Amendment. This issue has been proven in court, time after time after time, and every time the outcome has been that it is the right of any individual to speak freely about their experiences.

Claim 1 [RE: Point E] -- Neither of these two posts was spam. These were clearly responses, responses covered by the first amendment. I was doing nothing more than excercising my right to free speech. Neither of these could by any means [other than my signature] be quali

Well, that sure was a long winded post!

1) I would like to stress that I have *never* used my power at TWF to profit my own company, or to spam these boards, or to ruin a competitor (as you claimed thinkhost).

2) What I stated was fact. You *did* spam this forum. Each and every reference that you have is there, if you read it. We can't make the posting rules any more prominent than they already are.

3) I am really astonished at the fact that you still believe you did not spam this forum! I guess this has just totally blown me away.

4) You should be a speech writer - I don't have nearly the time to spend writing a post in reply to yours, though I would *really* like to. You have a great way of manipulating things to fit with what you would like them to.

You use the first amendment as your fall-back for just about everything. Though I love the first amendment, I think it is used far to often in self-defense. Anyone can claim the first amendment for just about anything.

Anyway, as I stated, I really don't have the time to reply to each and everyone of your statements (which I think are really funny!).

All of your spam posts have been deleted (take notice that your SkyNet one was not, simply because it was a valid post that wasn't spam). What you do from here is up to you, but please don't spam the forum again, or you will be banned permanently.

I am going to leave this post open... I am very anxious to hear what others have to say about this up-coming novel!

------------------
TWF Administrator

Looking for Web Hosting Services?
Dynamic Internet Solutions : http://www.dids.com
Windows NT and UNIX Hosting ($9.95 - $399.95), Dedicated Servers, and Co-Location Programs

First thing I would like to start off with: "Darn! The page is taking too long to load!"

Hey, did someone removed all of thinkhost's posts? I tried visiting the old threads that were said to have spams but couldn't find anything from thinkhost.

To thinkhost:
I think the reason why you were considered spamming is because almost all of your posts, which you said was responsing to a potential client, sounded like a TV commercial.

I know, you may think that responsing to potential clients is alright. I think it's alright too. However, this is not a forum for people to response to potential clients. This is a forum for sharing knowledge for the good of the Internet.

Just look at a particular topic at the Jobs & Barter Forum. http://www.webmaster-forums.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000162.html
Mr. DoubleOK is looking for someone to help him with his title graphic. Almost everyone in this forum does design work. But did everyone reply by saying, "We're the one you need! Email me and we can talk!"

Luckily, no one did it. But if everyone were to do it, this forum will become a disaster.

And this is exactly what you did. I still remember one of your replies. Someone was looking for a host, and you reply with something like, "We have exactly what you need!"

If someone is looking for a host, maybe you should have replied with "Hmm...maybe you can check us out. We may have what you want."

Everyone has the freedom of speech. But as long as it's not abused. What do you think will happen if you were to go up to Bill Clinton and scold the daylights outta him?

And oh, something about responsing to potential clients.
It's like: I go up to Bill Clinton and scold the daylights outta him. Then later I said, "No no no, it's all a misunderstanding. I'm talking to the air."

The Truth
You did spammed.

I know, people were looking for a host, and you're responsing. But they were not looking for information on your hosting company. You can't just reply to everyone looking for a host telling them about yourself.

I'm a web designer. Do I response only to people looking for a web designer? Nope. I did response. But I also participated in other forums, sharing my knowledge.

But you only particpated in forums related to the service you provide, and each time (almost), telling them about yourself. This is not the reason why this forum exists!

Regards,
Jack

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Thank you -- I think I've clearly proven that at the end of the day your argument has no legal grounds whatsoever but was rather just a unbased, unproved and unethical sporadic roar against a competitor. Whether thats right or wrong, thats for you to judge, not me.

Frankly just as I rightfully use the Freedom of Speech as cover to voice my opinions, you use your wide definition of SPAM to attack any competitor, so I guess we could call that even eh?

I have always stood up for what I believed to be right, and I will continue to do so. In this instance, even though I may have been borderline, I was right, and your deletion of the posts was extremely questionable -- and two lower courts would likely rule two different ways on this -- from one side there is the freedom of speech, from another there is the issue of private property and the forum is indeed private. But in the end, would the supreme court likely rule for the freedom of speech? You bet. Do I want to bring the legal system into the picture in order to really go after you? Absolutely not, I definitely don't have the free time to do so, nor do I find it worthwhile to mess with those who are simply too stubborn in their conquest for money to look at any outside factors.

Again, I apologize for being borderline and for wandering into this rather greyish area.

JackChen: but the bottom line is still the same -- I had every right to make those posts no matter how biased they seemed to be. I was providing information, and there isn't any argument you could make against that. Could you come up to me and scold me? Sure, thats your right! Would I have to listen to you? No

This is a VERY greyish area because two issues are involved -- fredom of speech vs private property.

Am I against spam? Yes you bet I am, but there is a BIG difference between SPAM and advertising, advertising which is CLEARLY covered by freedom of speech.

Oh Chad -- one more notion... By having the title of administrator, you are [likely unwillingly] gaining leverage with users when you make posts. No matter how you turn it, you are using your title in order to profit your company.

I am also willing to bet that you have e-mailed EACH and EVERY one of the people who has posted on this board asking for services advertising you firm, since that sure seems to be what you are encouraging others to do.

Is that SPAM? YES. By making a post, the end-user requested the information be replied to in a similar fashing did s/he not? Thereby, you are guilty of the same wrong you are wrongly accusing me of.

The fact is that whether unwillingly or not, you are encouraging spam, but you are encouraging SPAM that will not hurt your firm as much because not everyone will see the posts about each company, but rather just that one individual.

Hrm, now will I go run to your connectivity providers and scream to them about spamming? Naah, not till you spam one of my clients, and they complain.

Chad, today you were lucky that I didn't pursue legal action against you and your company, just because I am a nice guy -- I don't like starting trouble where its not deserved, and frankly this was although not legally, but ethically partially my fault. I suggest you seriously reconsider how you handle these incidents in the future unless you want to be put out of business by someone else who will have more free time and money than I have.

I honestly wish you the best of luck, and may God help you avoid someone who is less capable of taking offense and writing off pointless roars as just roars as I have done in this case.

Hi Chad,

I would like to make a recommemdation on a business point of view and it may who knows generate a good income for TWF and help pay for expenses to maintain this forum.

My suggestion is open up another section for Web host providers in this forum and allow them to advertise their services only and further enguiries can be done by other means e.g. email,ICQ, etc.

This way TWF can attract a lot of web hoster wishing to advertise in this very popular forum (TWF) and it will also benefit members and surfers and make TWF a very favorite place to visit.

I don't know, maybe this idea may not be appropriate to a forum or the owner(JP) may disapprove of this. Anyway give it a thought.

I am only giving this suggestions and ideas for the better of TWF community.

Hope this helps.

NSS

[This message has been edited by NSS (edited 10 April 2000).]

ROFL!

Well, I had hoped this thread wouldn't become and argument between us, but I guess that is what it is.

I really don't think you understand the point here - None of my actions have been done because you are a competitor. Tons of hosts have posted here, but they post with valuable content which is left posted because it isn't spam.

I guess your "legal" threats mean nothing to me because you have no grounds. I have done absolutely nothing to you. As for my agruments having no legal grounds, I don't think they were ever meant to have _legal_ grounds - they were only meant to prove my point (which you are taking care of for me).

Spam has a pretty specific definition - unsolicited advertising. Though you say you understand the meaning and you do in fact know the definition, you don't seem to be willing to comprehend what it does truly mean.

My deletion of your posts was very much correct. Your posts had no right being in this forum - please spam a different forum if you insist on doing so. If you want to post with genuine help, go help out in the Web Site Critique area or something. I rarely make posts in this particular forum - why? Because this forum is a place for consumers to ask other consumers about hosting services. Not for consumers to be bombarded by a slew of spam messages which only waste space.

I have no intentions of letting this incident change my views and opinions on spam and what I think about it.

I guess what you really don't understand is that your threats of legal actions don't scare me. Not in the least. I have done absolutely nothing wrong, not even if your upstream providors would have decided to disconnect you. It's funny - I have had the same attitude towards spam for the 5+ years that I have been on the Internet, and not once have I been threatened by someone - you are indeed a first (thanks for the comic relief).

If I gain leverage by having the TWF Administrator status, sue me. I spend a lot of time at TWF, trying to keep it in shape and everything. I don't however, blatantly spam the boards. I don't use my title for anything - what people associate that title with is up to them. Just a piece of advice - We have gained customers by my presence at TWF... We often get things like "your post at TWF was very helpful and I feel your support will be the same"... This is in response to a piece of advice that I offer somewhere, like in the Misc. Scripting Languages forum. If you would just participate in the forums helping people, they would definitly give your hosting company a look if they were in need of your services.

quote:I am also willing to bet that you have e-mailed EACH and EVERY one of the people who has posted on this board asking for services advertising you firm, since that sure seems to be what you are encouraging others to do.

Those of you that have received a direct spam from my firm, speak up now! I hope you have time to wait thinkhost, because it isn't going to happen. My firm hasn't e-mailed a person about our services, ever.

You are trying to center my actions around my hosting firm, and they have nothing to do with my hosting firm. Again, let me STRESS that my actions against you were not because you are a competitor - I could care less.

I invite you to run to my upstream providors about my "spam" - That would definitly be interesting. Make sure you give them the evidence

quote:Chad, today you were lucky that I didn't pursue legal action against you and your company, just because I am a nice guy -- I don't like starting trouble where its not deserved, and frankly this was although not legally, but ethically partially my fault. I suggest you seriously reconsider how you handle these incidents in the future unless you want to be put out of business by someone else who will have more free time and money than I have.

[sarcasm]Must just be my lucky day! Thanks for taking pity on me! [/sarcasm]

To everyone, I apologize for my attitude... As you all know, this isn't the normal, professional Chad... It is just really late and I find thinkhost's post quite comical. I mentioned an upcoming novel earlier, I am beginning to think that we could use thinkhost's post as a comic strip!

OK, so, now that I have said that, and thinkhost has said his opinion, the rest of you jump in ... Thinkhost, I ask that you make no further posts to me (I don't want to continue arguing... We can do that offline so that we don't make this page any larger). By all means, you can post in reference to other posts that are sure to come.

Have a good night everyone! [notice the spam signature below before you go]

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TWF Administrator

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NSS,

That isn't a bad idea. It would definitly have to be ran by JP... The problem is we don't want to make the forums really cluttered and hard to navigate. I am up for making a general "spam" forum where web hosting companies and designers and marketers could make one post regarding the company and services...

I will see what JP thinks about it... What do you think thinkhost?

I would also like to note that I have nothing personal or business related against thinkhost. He is probably a great person that just made a mistake (in a lot of people's eyes anyway) and he has apologized... I have no wishes to continue this argument.

------------------
TWF Administrator

Looking for Web Hosting Services?
Dynamic Internet Solutions : http://www.dids.com
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hilarious, blah and thinkhost have virtually no post in this forum, except for here of course.

i picked up on the nature of thinkhost's post on one of his very first ones. whether is spam or not, that's not for me to determine. i just know i didn't get any unbiased info from his post.

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[This message has been edited by fairhousing (edited 10 April 2000).]

Can someone continue this thread on a new topic?

This page is getting longer and longer to load.

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Folks,

You have to realize my viewpoint -- I am simply extremely upset that you are using the excuse of spam in order to block and make up for a clearcut lack of

Were the posts somewhat spammish-sounding? Yes. Did they sound biased? Yes. Were the posts posted carelessly and without as much consideration as there should have been? Yes. Were they spam? NO. As long as the information is requested, you can not call that spam, no matter how you turn it. This is a clearcut defined right covered by free speech, and while it was advertising it was not spam because it was information that the user was requesting.

As I was telling a friend, it is indeed my free right to walk into a crowded vegetarian's convention with a T-Shirt that says "I adore killing and eating chickens and meat!!" and just as well I could walk into any other place with a T-Shirt advertising my services, just as much as I could start handing out flyers about my services on the street.

Now of course this is where I'd like to see this discussion go which is in the direction of how spam should really be dealt with. From my viewpoint it is entirely and morally wrong to label every single bit of advertising as spam -- the fact is that advertising is indeed covered under free speech, and advertising also happens to be the base on which our free market economy swivels upon. Should we really be filtering out all advertising on forums, e-mail, etc., and does that not violate the Freedom of Speech?

I think after some thinking and reasoning I am would be even more tempted to lean towards the side of some who say that advanced e-mail and web browser software with filters at the user-end point and user-requested filters at ISP's point are the answer, because until that flood of whatever form of spam slows down or interrupts service for someone else, it is really not doing any damage, and really is a form of free speech, is it not?

After all, we receive paper advertising of all sorts in the mail. How is anything online different? Just because its cheaper? Why, as ISP's and professionals have we taken such a strong stand against something that is likely just another form of free speech and the clear base of our free market economy? Is this just a result of some individuals' moving too fast without providing for any clearcut reasoning and thinking?

I would love to see some of the reasoning behihnd this, and hope that folks will reply.

Chad, your sarcasm is appreciated I think you won't be too surprised to find out that that is one of my intentions some day I am currently pursuing a business degree at the University of Michigan, and intend to go on to Law School, hopefully ultimately to become one of the best lawyers out there because too many cases like this go unnoticed, and frankly there is a clear need for someone who is willing to go out there and make a real difference.

Fairhousing: is it so wrong to be biased? Are we not ALL biased in one way or another? Please tell me that you're not biased against certain foods for example or against dating [or your kids dating] certain types of people? Biases are a part of who we are.

oops... clear-cut lack of a good reason to get rid of me, because in the end all i did wrong was go against etiquette of the forum, etiquette which due to a mistake on behalf of the moderators was never posted in the terms & conditions but rather in a very hidden place.

Thinkhost,

I don't know why you are trying to pin the blame of your actions on the moderators and administrators of this forum. Like we forced you to post your spam! We can't make the rules any more prominent than they are without flashing a big red "DON'T SPAM" message, which just isn't possible because this whole forum is based around a piece of software that would make that *very* difficult. The "Posting Criteria" at the top is there, and it is in a very prominent page (viewable by most people without even scrolling) - It is, as you stated what we (the moderators and administrators) wish would happen in this forum - if the rules outlined in that note are not followed, your message will be deleted, simple. Whether it is spam or not.

Great! Just what this world needs, another lawyer! And, one that keeps the streets safe for the criminals! If you are going to pursue a law degree, why in the world are you trying to run a hosting firm and a design firm too?!?!?!

As you and I have both stated, spam is unsolicited advertising. Since you still don't have a clear understanding of spam, let me break down and define those two words for you (man, I hate playing English Teacher!):

unsolicited: Not looked for or requested;
advertising: The activity of attracting public attention to a product or business, as by paid announcements in print or on the air

NOTE: Both definitions taken directly from Dictionary.com

OK, so let me put that into a term you can understand more easily, since you are having problems understanding it in the above form: the activity of getting public attention to a product or business by sending the consumer something not requested.

What makes your posts spam is that the users that you spammed on this board didn't request information about your services. They requested information about other firm's services. Unless you are that specific firm or you have been a client of that firm, you have absolutely no right to make a post about your firm. This forum is for consumers to share hosting experiences with consumers - not for hosts to tell consumers about their services. Since you were only a consumer in one of your posts, the rest were spam - the information wasn't requested by the consumer, whether that is how you read it or not.

So, by definition, you did spam. Call me a liar, call me a thief, take me off to court, I don't really care. If you can't interpret the word spam and determine what is and what is not spam clearly, I definitly wish you the best in court.

It is quite clear that you are just trying to get some practice in with one of your classes on arguing, but I think lawyers have to do a little work on their part - maybe study the topic and know what you are talking about. You are basically trying to reinvent the word spam - kind of like going into a court room and saying "murder isn't really murder."

Spam is basically annoying. Since you love the constitution, doesn't it say we can't be subject to cruel and unusual punishment? Isn't that what spam is?

Thread is being closed and started as "Spam 2 - the thinkhost saga".

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[This message has been edited by Chad Simper (edited 10 April 2000).]