How do we cope wth spam...

JP,

You either gotta stop the people from posting questions about packages and services, or you need to allow hosts to reply.

At the very least you gotta change your agreement so that hosts aren't entrapped as I was -- to me thats just unfair business practices.

I support the idea about opening a new forum designed specifically for communication between hosts and clients VERY strongly. This would open up the possibility for this forum to become a part of an open global market, a market that our government has worked so hard to build and preserve.

Also the link for the "posting criteria" should be either included in the terms and conditions or made a LOT bolder. I missed it and so will many others.

Chad,

I understand what you're saying about e-mail, but if thats the case then you CLEARLY need to specify that by posting questions about hosting services the user is requesting responses by e-mail.

The thing is that if I was to e-mail someone about a post they made in a forum asking for hosting, they could VERY righteously accuse me of spamming, because that is unsolicited advertising. Do you see what I mean? The post was made in a forum, and the response is expected in the forum UNLESS they were specifically told that the responses would be by e-mail.

Whether many users read the agreement or not to me is rather a moot argument -- the fact is that I read it, and I agreed to it. Had it had specifical information asking the hosts to e-mail users, THAT is what I would have done, and we would have avoided this whole argument!

I see exactly where you're coming from, but you gotta realize that unless you tell users that they will receive e-mails from hosts [which would make this an opt-in list of a sort] then it is spam, in its best form.

well ur asking for opinions. therefore, here's my thoughts:

1. thinkhost's post were ok by me, although obviously biased and bad taste promos.
2. his post totally discredited him and his company in my eyes. hurt him more than anybody.
3. absolutely, if i ask a question anybody should be able to answer it here at the forum!
4. as for what's spam and a written spam policy. it really doesn't matter. this is a privately owned forum, do whatever u want. no written policy will be perfect, it will either be too narrow or overbroad and thus lead to too many exceptions.

------------------
CLICK 4 some tested resources for making money $, hosting, and web promotions.
My Site got hacked, but i'm coming back?

[This message has been edited by fairhousing (edited 11 April 2000).]

Fairhousing:

I agree that my posts were made in bad taste and I was a pest Both I have apologized for.

I agree with you 100% about this being a private forum and the right of the moderator to make their own policy, but I think its very important that the policies are indeed clear.

The absolutely best way to deal with problems is by adding a new forum for hosts to correspond with the clients. While that may lead to advertising by hosts, it would promote an open market, and potentially lead to some VERY interesting and fruitful discussions.

Perhaps another necessity is a forum for hosts specifically. I would love to share some of my experiences and ideas, and I am sure I could learn a lot from the competitors. We've had great success with a similar forum, LawnSite [www.lawnsite.com] where competiting lawn care companies come together and discuss issues, share knowledge and information. It has really worked out great, and I would love to see the same sort of forum here.

Well, I don't know. I think, since Hosts are really people, they should be allowed to reply to messages answering any questions they have, as well as maybe a tag line like: "If you have any spare time, go check out my site at www.blahblah.com"

But I DON'T think it's right if they just reply to every message saying "Check us out." I think they should reply with some valuable information and maybe post some links to hosts that offer that.

I don't know

------------------
Flame Hosting: www.flamehosting.com
Justin Stayton (President/CEO)
[WEB SITE] www.flamehosting.com
[E-MAIL] [email protected]
[ICQ] 45549000

Justin: gotta admit its a darn pretty thin line

I think what we really ought to ask ourselves how much we value freedom of speech, and as a community set some standards [some of which may limit the freedom of advertising], but the key point is that the guidelines need to be clearly posted, because I was misled, and so would other people.

oops i meant pretty darn thin
my typo... wish I could edit my posts!!!

Well for one, you can edit your posts. It's one of the little icons above the post.

Anyway- yeah, it is a pretty thin line. But one thing I noticed is that you're now blaming your spam on the TOS here, which isn't right. What you did was totally wrong, and you should admit it. Don't you think?

------------------
Flame Hosting: www.flamehosting.com
Justin Stayton (President/CEO)
[WEB SITE] www.flamehosting.com
[E-MAIL] [email protected]
[ICQ] 45549000

Lets not go back to the issue whether I spammed or not eh? Its a double standard, and this forum tends to cover just about anything as spam, and I honestly do not want to go through that discussion I went through in the other forums. That issue is moot and settled, and we all walk away with what each of us decides, and as people from different walks of life we each hold our own views -- lets keep it that way.

I have acknowledged that I unwillingly violated the standards of this forum, and I did so without trying to do so on purpose. The standards here are different from what they are in general, and I have apologized for making that mistake, however that mistake would never have been made had the TOS specifically explained what is expected.
by general standards I never spammed. There is a BIG gap between the standards of a specific community and generally accepted standards.

Can we please move on from this issue? We all have our own beliefs, and there is really no point in arguing.

Yeah, TWF definitly has high standards. I don't we should open the door to spam, which many of you are agreeing to. That isn't my choice, but I will make sure my opinion is stated.

I also do not think that we should make a ten page TOS and make sure that we hold each and every user's hand as they make a post. That is just ****. I do think the TOS needs to be laid out a little bit clearer, but I take it that thinkhost wants us to spell *every* single little detail out.

I don't know why I am fighting this... It only has the potential of helping me by allowing me to reply to potential customers. I don't think I will though, because I hold me and my firm up to high standards and even if it was allowed, I doubt I would post saying "take a look at us!"

------------------
TWF Administrator

Looking for Web Hosting Services?
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Chad,

Please try to be clearer in your definitions -- you don't want advertising, period, which I can see. You're mis-labeling things, and thats driving me insane Then again, since I drove all of you insane with my posts, I guess thats calling it even.

The question of signatures is definitely a good one, and I am all for just having nothing more than URL's -- that only makes sense.

Then of course we get into the subject of biased posts... ahem... interesting topic.

Ok, well since you're on the subject of biased posts, I might as well get out what I want to say: DON'T GO WITH THINK HOSTING BECAUSE THEY SPAM MESSAGE BOARDS!

Anyway, I'm tired of hearing all this ****. I don't think the TOS needs to be changed because up until now we havn't had much trouble labeling stuff as spam. It already says enough stuff about that in the TOS.

Also- signiture were created for a reason. It's not fair to limit what people can and cannot put in it. This isn't a prison we're in, it's a cool community that, up until now, hasn't had many problems...

------------------
Flame Hosting: www.flamehosting.com
Justin Stayton (President/CEO)
[WEB SITE] www.flamehosting.com
[E-MAIL] [email protected]
[ICQ] 45549000

Oooh boy, we're back to step one -- libelous accusations. So much for progress of humanity, eh?

Justin, the problem is not in what you want or can label, the problem is keeping your visitors informed. I can guarantee you one- hundred percent that had I seen the tidbit about host reply guidelines, we would have avoided this entire issue! So why not avoid problems we can avoid?

You want to label any advertising as SPAM, go for it. But then I must also loudly scream "DON'T GO WITH FLAME HOSTING BECAUSE THEY SPAM MESSAGE BOARDS!" since your signature by my definitions is just as spammy since it is unsolicited

Why not be fair? Lets limit the signatures for hosts to just your name, title, company name and URL, and make some additions/changed to the TOS or add additional text to the posting boxes that would notify the user of the additional guidelines.

I honestly and upfrontly tell you right now that I was misled and that had the guidelines been posted, we would not be here today.

quote:Also- signiture were created for a reason. It's not fair to limit what people can and cannot put in it. This isn't a prison we're in, it's a cool community that, up until now, hasn't had many problems...

Hrmm... But yet limiting whats in the post is fair? If you're going to limit stuff, why not be consistent and limit the ENTIRE post content including the signature? Just because something is convenient doesn't mean it is fair.

Ahem... All this talk of spam, canning and cans is driving me nuts aside from making me hungry.

[This message has been edited by thinkhost (edited 11 April 2000).]

I have to agree with Justin’s last post. The thing I enjoy about TWF is its member’s willingness to participate, help others, and form an on-line community. Free speech only goes so far. Once you join a private community you are subject to the owners rules, whether you like them or not and whether there outlined in a legal agreement or not.

For the most part I do not mind commercial comments from members who own companies as long as they’ve been members for a little while and have assisted others or at least participated in the forum.

There’s no “unfair business practices” going on as TWF is not a business and it’s moderators and administrators are committed to the forum, separately from their business. TWF’s high standards make it what it is. Without them it would be just another web design forum/newsgroup with tons of advertising and spam.

I also agree with the deletion policy. Removing Spam swiftly before it becomes a major issue will eliminate problems such as this.

------------------
Adam
AIS Internet Solutions
[email protected]
www.aisinternet.com

Adam: while I agree 100% to your comment about private communities, rules really do need to be visibly posted for them to be binding, even in a private community, if nothing else for fairness' sake.

I must agree with Adam and Justin. We didn't have these problems until thinkhost, and I really don't see a need to change anything. We will just continue deleting spam, as is. There isn't a problem here, other than thinkhost didn't take the time to read the posting criteria (which he did miss, but it is there).

I personally feel that absolutely nothing should be changed at TWF because of this. I have deleted countless spams and never has this type of ordeal been raised about it.

At the very maximum, I think the most that we should do is make the user agreement a little more specific to spam. Forget making the posting criteria more prominent. Forget about all the signature suggestions. We will delete any post that is considered spam, which has the same meaning for the majority of people that have been on the Internet for a while.

I think this entire discussion is pointless (no offense JP). TWF is a great place, and I see no reason to change it simply because one person didn't see the posting criteria and did something that wasn't allowed/liked.

------------------
TWF Administrator

Looking for Web Hosting Services?
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Chad: You need to ask yourself whether you are refusing the proposed changes because they would hurt your business, or are you honestly being non-biased in your views?

<rant>
I'd really love to contribute to this forum, and I think you will find that I do have a lot of interesting experiences, knowledge and views to add, but if no changes are made I will leave and I will start a competing forum. As much as I do not want to, I think that if changes are not being made, that to me is clearly entrapment and unfair business practices, which need to be fought against.
</rant>

Then again... Maybe to push a change in the signature policy all I gotta do is add our slogan to the signature -- No offense, but I'm willing to bet Chad won't like that too much

And thats my .02 Yawwn... Although I'd love to write more I gotta go finish this dog-gone study on Internet Privacy. I just realized -- how ironic that this issue should come up while I was working on this document. [No, this was not all a big set up, so don't even go there :]

I think we've all had enough of this. It's time for everyone to move on with the rest of our lives. If we can create a TOS that is more clear to users, then great, let's do that- as long as it is not too lengthy, because we don't want an extremely long TOS.

Just a quick question for thinkhost, though... you mentioned that free speech is being limited by not allowing SPAM in this forum, and that it is your constitutional right. Isn't free speech being limited everywhere, though? If we threaten Clinton's life, we'll probably get arrested. You mentioned libel a number of times in your thread. Couldn't that too be considered free speech? Even if a person is making remarks (that may not be true) which hurt your company, that can still be considered free speech, because free speech allows us to say whatever we want, right? I think we have to use our common sense when posting in these forums, because there are in fact limits to free speech. My personal opinion is that what you did was SPAM, but that doesn't matter as it appears that you won't do it again. I'm just trying to make a point that free speech has its limits, and I don't think you can put "your right" to advertise in the same league as holding a protest against the government or an organization, which was really what free speech was put in the constitution for.

I hope you do stay in this forum, as it does appear that you will have some valuable information to share. Hopefully something like this won't happen again.

- Brian

[This message has been edited by Brian Farkas (edited 11 April 2000).]

Oh Geez- well that's fine with me at least if you do stay, but I feel that nothing really needs to be changed; especially the signiture issue. If you feel that this "business" isn't good enough for your needs, than go ahead over to some other forum. But I'm sure you'll find the same rules, or even worst. Considering all the forums around, this is one of the better ones when it comes to spam.

Finally, stop picking and blaming stuff on Chad. He did nothing that should piss you off. He didn't do anything because you are a competing host. Before you came along there were maybe 10-12 other hosts posting, and nothing like that ever happened.

Cheers...

------------------
Flame Hosting: www.flamehosting.com
Justin Stayton (President/CEO)
[WEB SITE] www.flamehosting.com
[E-MAIL] [email protected]
[ICQ] 45549000

Can you say a thick skull??? I don't have the time nor the want to count the number of times I have said that my actions at TWF have *nothing* *nothing* *nothing* *nothing* *nothing* *nothing* *nothing* *nothing* *nothing* *nothing* *nothing* *nothing* *nothing* *nothing* to do with my firm. I make use of the signature because it is there.

As I have stated before... The proposed changes can only help me, and definitly won't harm me. Why than would I be fighting them? For some other reason perhaps? Bingo! I have already explained my reason - maybe you just didn't read it any of the 4,000 times.

By all means, start up a competing forum. There are plenty of forums out there. In fact, we had another individual just like yourself that started up a competing forum... Even took the name! They really aren't moving anywhere Your threats really don't pursuade me and I seriously doubt they hurt JP. I don't care if you start up a forum for hosts - that is your business. Everything in this world has competition, including forums. You definitly won't harm TWF one bit. Gee, a forum ran by a host - any guesses on who gets to spam and advertise?

I don't know why you keep saying "unfair business practices" - because I participate in other forums, sharing my knowledge, I have an advantage over you? Because I have the power to delete spam, I have an advantage over you? What gives me an advantage or "unfair business practice?" That is a little unclear to me.

Go for it, edit your signature however you like (just don't create a webpage ) - My signature pushes my company and it has every right to. It won't change what I think about you or your company or your thoughts on changing this policy or my thoughts on changing this policy one bit.

Yes, I agree with Justin. Stop picking on me - I really am not the source of your problems, you are.

JP, I am not going to close this thread simply because you started it... But, it really is going nowhere. I think that it is established that the agreement needs to be more specific towards spam. That is all that I, and the rest of TWF (minus thinkhost, of course) think should be done.

------------------
TWF Administrator

Looking for Web Hosting Services?
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I agree with what Chad and justin said and in my opinion TWF rules will be updated when the needs arise I am sure, but as it is now, it's just fine as Chad said, why should anyone please one person who already made a mistake(Thinkhost)and is now trying to bend the rules of the Forum just because he feels and enjoy arguing or is trying to cover up his fault.

I think all this could have been handled in a more mature and honest answer would suffice. If Thinkhost likes to debate so much, I would advise him to start a new thread on the topic of which comes first, the chicken or the egg and I bet both his answers will be wrong.It will be more entertaining instead or his boring legal rights as a person.

Thanks

NSS http://www.unitronics.com

Chad,

Unfair business practice was you contacting my upstream providers, who have told me that this has happened before [probably with someone else] and that such requests are always investigated, but in most cases happen to be nothing more than competitors trying to get rid of each other.

Lets stop the personal attacks though, eh?

Thinkhost,

I still think you are trying to blame my actions on the fact that you are a competitor. It had nothing to do with that. I talk to competing hosts everyday of my life, and we get along very well. We share a lot of information.

My actions were taken because your spam was the worst this board has seen! Your actions just said to me that something needed to be done. It was an over-reaction, but it wasn't because you are a competitor. Frankly, there is enough business in this industry for everyone. The good hosts will eventually be the ones that are getting all of the customers anyway. I have every belief that your posts weren't meant as spam, but at first site, without knowing more, that is what I took them as - I took them for face value. I also believe that you are running a great operation with your hosting company and I am very sure you didn't post those messages because you wanted to defy the rules, or you wouldn't be arguing your point.

Of course complaints like mine are investigated by companies like UUNet. Unfortunatly, they very rarely do much good which is why I don't pursue but on a *very* slim percentage of the time. If you would have been a porn site and you would have posted that many spams, trust me, I would have contacted your upstreams... It had nothing to do with the fact that you are a competitor. Why haven't I/we contacted upstreams before? Because there has never been a 15+ post (which were considered to be spam by the administrators terms) raid in such a short time. I don't care if your messages were advertising lollipops, they would have been deleted and your upstream contacted if they would have been in the amount you made in the short time frame.

Companies like UUNet rarely do deal with spam like they say they do. It really isn't anything to do with competitors. I only contacted two companies, BTW. UUNet isn't doing anything about it and the other wanted more proof - though they were surprised that you stated that you had heard from them. Beside the point. Nothing will come of my contacting your upstreams anyway.

I'm not trying to attack you personally. I have even tried contacting you on ICQ so that we could chat about his whole thing

NSS,

You have *no* idea how ironic your chicken and egg story is! We were talking about the very thing at the office today!!!!

------------------
TWF Administrator

Looking for Web Hosting Services?
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hahahahahha... naah i'd just prove that the chicken came before the egg as a mutation

the idea of limiting signatures to only a url or url's is absolutely insane.

this discussion wasn't created because of signatures! no real problem solver changes something that has nothing to do with the problem just for the sake of changing something.

------------------
CLICK 4 some tested resources for making money $, hosting, and web promotions.
My Site got hacked, but i'm coming back?

Seesh! Why can't we just get along?
I think we should add the word spam to our rude list! Hehehe

Look you people why are you still arguing about this? I mean spam is spam and that's it! It should not be encouraged and it should not be discussed! Discussing spam is spam in itself. Let's just get back to doing what we do best and make some damn good web pages!

Chad: Even though I am on your side 100% I still think you should cut down your signature a bit. This would give you a better leg to stand on in future when telling people off. You are our administrator and should be setting a good example to the new people that show up here. Keep your good signature but cut out the bold bit with the prices on it! That is I am afraid advertising!

Thinkhost: I do not know you but I ask that instead of coming in here looking for arguments you go to the website critique area and critique someone's site! That would be a nice and constructive thing to do.

JP: I don't know what your intentions are with this post but I would suggest we let this drop. You are the boss though so it's up to you mate. I would suggest any indirect answers to people's post that contains an answer that is not really related to the question and appears to be advertising the poster should get a warning notice like you guys normally do. If the poster posts again his/her membership is revoked until further notice.

This is the best bulletin board I have ever been to. It is informative and the members are friendly and Genuinley helpfull. Please don't ruin it by allowing advertisers to get their dirty claws in it!

Thanks

~Vy~

-------------------------------
Buy beefcakes online!!
real juicy beefcakes £1 a cake
not so juicy beefcakes £0.50
Beefcakes that have been under my bed for a week only £.10p

Come to www.Ilikepieandbeefcakes.com

The people's beefcakes!!! We make them juicier!

--------------------------------------
hehehehe sorry had to do it

Something about what thinkhost has been saying about the freedom of speech thing:

Everyone Has The Freedom To Do Anything. Just because you enjoy the freedom doesn't mean you don't have the pay for the consequences.

I have the freedom to kill anyone I like. But if I do kill someone, I'll go to jail. Right?

------------------
Goodbookmarks.com - Tired of search engines returning links with no content or bad design? Then GoodBookmarks.com is your solution. All sites listed have at least a decent design and rich in content. And most importantly, they're all worth a BOOKMARK.

Not if you are clever about it!
Goes for everything really. It's like that guy that posted a message in here a month ago about "Surf the web for free!" Click here http://surffree.com/cgi?ID:blatantlyobviusaffiliate hehehehhe yeah right!

~Vy~

hahaha can't believe that url exists!
Who would of thought!

~Vy~

It always brings a chuckle to see how quick people are to throw about legal terms and not so quick to demonstrate a substantiated understanding of them, especially those of the Net community.

I've dealt with law from the federal level to the ever so common intellectual property and copyright issues of our wonderous Internet age and all I can say is this 'novel', as you put it, has been mildly amusing.

Anyway, regarding the sigs, as a business owner for 12 years now I know the desire to advertise whenever the opportunity presents itself. Longterm view -- it is a phase, for the most part, but may sometimes be hard to resist. You are just trying to promote your business, as an honest and ethical member of the business community, we hope, and you know advertising is key to your survival. Your method and presentation however are so very important.

As business owners I'm sure you know that the best critique and advice towards your performance comes not from your colleagues but ultimately from your customers. I'm expanding my business to the Net so to most of you I suppose I would be considered a hosting customer. For what it's worth, this is my view, a customer's view if you will, on the sigs. I only bring this up because the sig situation struck me since my first visit here a few weeks ago. The administrators, especially you Chad, pride yourselves on the noncommecrcial user-support nature of this forum. I must say you're on to something. It is a fantastic idea and very impressive. That's why I feel it's worthwhile to give you my straightforward view on this. So please don't take offense to my well-intentioned bluntness. Looking at the sigs shows an inconsistency with the standards you are proud of. These various signatures strewn all over the forums with, dare I use the word, 'spam-like' catch phrases and styled text and some sigs nearly qualifying as a whole paragraph, are not as effective in getting you business as they are in getting a frown -- my opinion. Seeing some of these sigs, they qualify as nothing more than toned down versions of tasteless advertising. If you want to proclaim standards, I suggest going all the way with them, not three quarters of the way. That's what will bring home a solid level of respect from potential customers. My signature suggestion is to include an URL and a one-line description of the company or services, nothing less, nothing more. If your company is solid and your posts are well thought out, you'll be attracting many more customers than looking like you're begging for them with insane signatures.

Max

I changed my signature recently to reflect my status here. Some people were confused, so I changed it to include my title as a TWF Administrator. While doing so, I did edit my small piece of "signature spam" and I have to agree that it did become more spam than I like to see. I have reduced it back to what it was before, not excluding my role at TWF nor getting rid of something that I feel is deserved. I think that my signature now offers everything that anyone could expect or want. I have what I want in the signature, but I also have what is needed as a member of this community that has additional responsibilities.

------------------
TWF Administrator

Dynamic Internet Solutions : Windows NT and UNIX Hosting & Dedicated Servers

Oh man Chad! You gave into the signiture deal Anyway- I guess you're going to say my signiture is to big now, right? I think signitures arn't a problem period.

Personal attacks? ThinkHost, if you want to stop personal attacks, then stop attacking people! 'Cause you're the only one personally attacking people. Geez...

------------------
Flame Hosting: www.flamehosting.com
Justin Stayton (President/CEO)
[WEB SITE] www.flamehosting.com
[E-MAIL] [email protected]
[ICQ] 45549000

hilarious, i can't believe folks are going on about signatures. when the issue is thinkhost's posts and a spam guideline for posting at this forum.

------------------
CLICK 4 some tested resources for making money $, hosting, and web promotions.
My Site got hacked, but i'm coming back?

I just removed the tagline "Do you need webhosting?" and our pricing... Basically just condensed it by getting rid of stuff that I didn't feel needed to be there in the first place. It looked large and ungly anyway

I'm not giving in to the signature thing one bit... This just did pursuade me to do something I already planned on doing for the last couple of days.

------------------
TWF Administrator

Dynamic Internet Solutions : Windows NT and UNIX Hosting & Dedicated Servers

Well Justin, your sig IS pretty long ...

I don't have a problem with it though, it just seems like you are trying to fit in every detail about your company. BTW it does seem strange that your web site is not up yet- it still displays "Coming April 1"

Brian

Well I like to make change, and I think that has been accomplished very well, and I think and hope that many will follow Chad's lead.

Now back to the chicken and the egg issue...

fairhousing,

I assume you like to be fair, right?

So why not make things fair? I agree the TOS is the big key, and it will be a HUGE step forward. But going along with that why not limit the signatures to make sure they're not spammy? Chad has volunteered to go so, and my kudos go to him. If you clearly want to work towards building a GREAT community, which this site has the potential of becoming, why not go that extra distance?

This can, in the end, be a GREAT forum, but I think we all have to agree to be fair.

I'm sorry - I have dealt with an overwhelming number of people via ICQ that think this entire situation is absolutely stupid. No one, besides you (thinkhost) has any problems with the way things have been handled at TWF in the past and absolutely no one wants to change signature requirements. In fact, there are quite a number of protests to placing restrictions on signatures.

For that, I am closing this thread until JP has a chance to look at it and reopen it if he wants. JP, please contact me via ICQ when you read this so that we can discuss this situation.

I do still think we could make the terms of service more clear in the way of spam, but there isn't going to be a signature restriction put into effect.

The changing of my signature wasn't due to the pressure of this thread. I personally felt that it was big and ugly and served no real purpose when people could easily click on the link and get the same information. Most of the users know me anyway. I feel that my signature now accomplishes as much as it did before and it doesn't distract from the actual post nor does it take up extra space. I don't have a problem with any user's signature here and I will continue to recommend to JP that no signature restrictions be put into effect.

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TWF Administrator

Dynamic Internet Solutions : Windows NT and UNIX Hosting & Dedicated Servers