The Newbie as a Host - Knowledge vs. Blind Faith?
I sincerely hope this post attracts the attention of all the admins and moderators within this board....if for no other reason than to say "Thank You" for the wealth of knowledge you have made available to me. I would appreciate your advice and whatever opinions you can share with me. Over the past year as a newbie, I have been subjected to a bombardment of "professional" opinions from countless "reputable" webhost forums and guides and lists....all of whom I now realize were stroking me and packing it in. I have been here nightly for weeks reading this source of unbiased and unpaid opinions....and linking to sites all over the web gathering tidbits of insight. Thank you all....(excuse my while I wipe my nose....hehehe...) Forgive me for the longwinded nature of my writing....I find it hard to be brief after months of workday dreaming and Q&A on this subject.
The project I have now is to build a network of offroad websites, similar to what Offroad.com has done, specifically for Texas and the surrounding states....which is going to gather under the name of "TexasOffroad.net" and I hope it will be profitable enough to allow me to devote full time to the internet. I have a mix of over 50 non-profit orgs and clubs for offroad user groups including Jeeps/4WD, ATV/Quad, and MX/Dirtbikes that I want to offer free website and community forum services to....I have 25+ motocross tracks, 20+ privately owned rec areas, and numerous event properties that need free community space as well. All totaled...our combined membership is well over 5000.....worth the effort, don't you agree?
I have no objection to using a combination of packages to achieve the final website/portal/webhosting configuration I need....if the combined services will allow me to work the services more fully and with less administrative repitition or overhead. Whatever gets the whole job done the cheapest and most efficiently....
I plan to offer $10/50Mb webhosting services through my DBA....Beamer Communications....to the small businesses that support these orgs/clubs through banner ads on the above mentioned sites. I would like to host most of these sites on one server farm, like WebAxxs, and will transfer existing sites over to integrate with whatever community set-up I can supply...or link to other servers.......unless easier options are available. The optimum set-up will allow me to link a large portion of the business sites to the member/club/org sites through a simple multi-level directory (rather than having links that search out new URLs and wait for loading time) under the umbrella of TexasOffroad.net and the Beamer Communications relationship.....??
So, finally, the questions are......
1) Will it be possible for me to purchase webspaces or reseller spaces (250-400Mb) and divide them up into the smaller chunks I need (10Mb "homepages" and 50Mb Commercial sites) under the umbrella of the main website without additional charges or set-up fees?
2) Can I "accumulate" the space in a way that will allow me to sell a 50Mb space without purchasing (and wasting) the other 200Mb or more?
3) Since I still have a 1000Mb + 100 POP3 space at CIHost (bummer, huh?) for only $14.95 a month, would it be possible to utilize this space on a redirect or something? I hate to waste this bargain priced space...
4) How can I get the "pieces" of services I want from various host/reseller packages without having to go to a dedicated server and buying/leasing expensive software/scripts/etc...?
I was disappointed with CIHost Support and was almost going to use them exclusively...but I couldn't do it. It just never felt right. Now I'm kinda glad I waited. After searching this board I found a dozen goods services and found I liked WebAxxs/OLM as well. Funny huh? Kinda like staying in the family....
I have noticed that WebAxxs offers the same package as OLM.net for less money and they have a good set-up for the kind of things I want to do in phase one of this project. I wish I culd get a better Community Building Software than WebAxxs has. I know and like Web Crossing....are there any others I should try to work with?
OK, I'll let this novel end for one night....I realize I'm in way over my head here....I let myself wander too much earlier, so I cut it and pasted it down below....yada, yada, yada....
Thanks for your time and any interst/comments/advice any of the follwers of this board can offer this confused man.
Bobby Beamer
Spring, Texas
"Life is hard, but it's harder when you're stupid."
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A not so brief history of how I am becoming who I am....and how the internet really can change your life....
When I say I'm a newbie....I bought my first computer Dec'98 and got hooked on the net. Four months later, I compiled a Motocross Track Directory for Texas called MotoxMadness.com ....mostly for kicks and partly because it was such a major project to attempt. The site became very popular within the little MX crowd and got some national attention as well. After alot of email requesting more info on offroad and asking me if I would do the same sort of thing for ATVs or Jeeps, I decided to let it stagnate a little in favor of a much larger project.
I got this crazy idea that it may be possible to map the trails in the state used by dirtbikes, ATVs and Jeeps/4WDs. So, I contacted the USGS and ESRI and MapTech and DeLorme and Lundgren (WebX) and found it could be done....maybe....so, here's how I figure it could work...
1) Take a really well done USGS topo-map software...like MapTech has...and load it into a database on the net.
2) Have "scouts" in various areas of the state go out as usual on the weekends with their GPS systems on their vehicles and mark waypoints and trails.
3) Upload the info they gather onto the database as a new "layer" on the topos.
4) Allow the next "scout" to download the same layer onto his laptop for use with the GPS system and to add or alter the info...then upload it back in again.
5) Create a massive forum with a dedicated topic folder for each of the 1000+ topo maps for Texas and make it possible to search and post info about any USGS on the database.
Of course, this is a very simplified version of it....and the security issues would require some serious genius....but it does sound like a really intriguing idea doesn't it? I know MapTech is trying to map the trails within the state park system in Texas, so it's not so radical of an idea....yeah, right!
Since I first started this thing rolling, I have been elected to the Board of Directors of a new non-profit called Texas Motorized Trails Coalition and we have just been granted $985,000 from Parks and Wildlife to build the largest non-profit org-owned offroad rec area in the history of the US. And the director wants me to work on a trail database for Parks and Wildlife.....too cool!
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[This message has been edited by Bobby (edited 19 January 2000).]
Bobby Beamer
Spring, Texas
"Life is hard, but it's harder when you're stupid."
Justin S posted this at 13:55 — 19th January 2000.
They have: 2,076 posts
Joined: Jun 1999
Well- although I probably don't know the answer to this question, I just wanted to say thanks! It looks like you have a great idea, and I think you should run with it...
Now to the question:
ANSWER: it would be very, very hard. I know almost all hosts won't let you resell space (unless you sign-up for their reseller program). But for the 10MB free hosting, it would be hard, but as long as you uploaded the sites I guess it would be ok? This isn't what I would choose to do.
ANSWER: I don't get the question, sorry.
ANSWER: Why not just cancel this account? Or, since CIHost was pretty good up until the latest problems (at least I think), just wait until everything is up and working again and use the space for your site.
ANSWER: well if the scripts you want to use are PERL/CGI scripts, then you can still use them with any host. But if your talking about stuff like Real Audio/Video or PHP, etc... that only some hosts have, then their is one solution. Some hosts will let you create custom plans, which then you might be able to get the software you want.
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Justin @ fireburn.com
Justin Stayton - [email] [icq]
Bobby posted this at 18:05 — 19th January 2000.
They have: 30 posts
Joined: Jan 2000
Thanks for the reply, Justin.
I realize I'm not being extremely clear about the thoughts I have on this subject. Try these points as a guide to how the questioning evolves in my mind....
1) At Communitech they allow you 25 subdomains and ftp accounts (which they claim are "true" subdomains)....so the "breaking up" of the webspace you purchase would fall right into the same idea I have for making up a "community" of non-profit webmasters under a larger commercial-based host. I was wondering if any of you have had experiences similar to the package they offer? Any thoughts on them as a source? (When CIHost crashed, they sent me an email offering their "support"....wow...what to think, huh?)
2) The "accumulation" question follows this reasoning....If I buy a chunk of space, say 400Mb at a host that allows me to offer free websites and community set-ups (like Communitech or WebAxxs) and I need more space, will most hosts allow me to pick up another 400Mb chunk and join the two together? Or for instance, using WebAxxs as an example, I pick up the Community package AND a Reseller package...would it be customary for a host to allow me to combine whatever spaces I have into one large chunk and divide it up as I feel a need to? Or am I way off in left field here?
3) I agree that CIHost has been a reliable service in the past, even though their Tech crew seems kinda questionable...and has some awesome packages, especially for resellers. But would any of you have other suggestions on whether they are what I should be looking for in a host? I have never felt really comfortable with them....and I've learned in life to trust my feelings about things, ya'know?
4) I've put alot of time into searching out suppliers and companies that offer "Community" building software or affiliate programs....and I've built over half a dozen on sites like Excite or Homesite or Deja or MyWeb or etc.... Frankly, most are a pain to work within as an admin and uploading stuff as a member is even slower and more error prone...and waiting for pages to load is brutal slow, especially as the communities they host grows and server resources get swallowed up. Do any of you have any suggestions as to who, what, where would be willing to accept a smalltime project like this? Is there some special trait I should be looking for in this area that only experienced webmasters would know about?
I'd love the chance to offer this kind of service to my fellow offroad enthusiasts, so any pointers or advice is appreciated. The idea that I could actually make enough money from the commercial side of reselling hosting to allow me to devote my time to a nobel cause is a great motivator.
Later....lunchtime is over!.....Bobby {
)
Bobby Beamer
Spring, Texas
"Life is hard, but it's harder when you're stupid."
Justin S posted this at 20:43 — 19th January 2000.
They have: 2,076 posts
Joined: Jun 1999
Sorry- I don't have much time to post, so I'd say that whoever you decide to go with (WebAxxs for instance) can answer almost all the questions you have...
Again, sorry for the short reply...
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Justin @ fireburn.com
Justin Stayton - [email] [icq]
Rob Pengelly posted this at 03:08 — 20th January 2000.
They have: 850 posts
Joined: Jul 1999
Your project seems like a very big task, which will require a lot of web space, bandwidth etc, I would think. Although I only skimmed through your post (sorry
..) I suggest you look into getting a dedicated server. Than you will have a lot less worries about web space, subdomains, emails etc.
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[This message has been edited by robp (edited 19 January 2000).]
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John Pollock posted this at 03:28 — 20th January 2000.
He has: 628 posts
Joined: Mar 1999
Hi Bobby:
While looking through the things you want to do, I would say your single biggest problem getting a host to do this on a "virtual hosting account" is bandwidth.
If you plan on these sites (yours + all of those hosted by you) getting a lot of traffic, you might end up going over your bandwidth limits (unlimited bandwidth is not really unlimited) and being charged whatever amount the host decides in extra fees.
I think the best advice would be a dedicated server. You can rent these from a hosting company or have your own. My guess is this would be cheaper in the long run with such a large undertaking-- and it will allow you to sell the space the way you like, and place the directories how you want them.
Of course, I could be wrong.. maybe one of the hosting companies that post here can give you an idea of the bandwidth these sites might require and give you a better idea on how to proceed.
Best of luck with the project, it looks like a great idea!
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Bobby posted this at 05:42 — 20th January 2000.
They have: 30 posts
Joined: Jan 2000
Yes, I'm beginning to agree with you all. The Dedicated Server is probably the only option for something this size. I'm surprized that CIHost has always allowed such a large transfer rate on their accounts...but, that's one of the things that attracts so many people to use them. Geez, guys, I'm gonna have to go "back to school" just to run the place efficiently and I don't even have it built yet! Maybe, I should start off with a standard plan at a host and let it grow into the server...at least I won't be getting too deep into a venture that has flaws I haven't discovered yet or never gathers the following to support it. My main concern is gathering all these webmasters under TexasOffroad.net and then having problems with my webhost supplier and losing credibility with my peers.
I appreciate your help guys...This is going to require alot of homework....decisions, decisions.....Bobby.
Bobby Beamer
Spring, Texas
"Life is hard, but it's harder when you're stupid."
Stefen Enns posted this at 16:51 — 20th January 2000.
He has: 150 posts
Joined: Apr 1999
I agree with Rob that you should look into a dedicated server, especially if you‘ll be hosting other people‘s sites.
As John already said, unlimited is never really unlimited and you will probably run into problems on a virtual hosting account. (The host I‘m currently with defines unlimited bandwidth as 6GB per month. That‘s far from unlimited.)
chicken posted this at 05:01 — 27th January 2000.
They have: 98 posts
Joined: Jan 2000
Another problem you have is what we all have. How to set something up NOW that will allow us to do what we need to do in the FUTURE. I mean, if it were as easy as pie, we'd ALL be on dedicated servers. Right?
What you are talking about could require many people to setup/maintain/admin. I always find it a bit funny when someone says they want to start a site like WHATEVER.com when they just don't realize that WHATEVER.com is actually a company with 30 employees (I just picked 30 for the heck of it, could be more could be less).
Some of these people are extremely knowledgeable (beyond my means) of how to setup/admin/modify complex web applications and web sites. I get jittery when I try to set up some of the free cgi scripts AS IS.
It is hard to create GeoCities, when you just don't have the means to do so. (I think I remember someone asking "who Geocities was hosted by in one of these forums).
Try your idea on a small scale even if it ends up costing you some cash. If it works and you and other people like it, and you see a future in it ($$$), go dedicated (many of the costs won't be there and you will have total control over the setup, etc.)
Just my babble...
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Bobby posted this at 21:08 — 12th February 2000.
They have: 30 posts
Joined: Jan 2000
Thanks for the comments. I agree that we all seem to have the same dilemma....wanting to offer a service we can't afford to supply! I've been continually researching since i post last month and haven't been back here for a few weeks. My co-webjunkies/webmasters are bugging me about "what's happening with the webhosting thing?"...so I'm not going to get to shuffle my feet much longer. Here are the latest "opinions" I've gathered within the emptiness of my cranium....
I'm convinced Communitech is an excellent choice for those looking to allow SubDomain and wildcard options. They offer 25 subs within an account...very useful for me and the idea I have for supplying websites to the 20+ motocross tracks in Texas for free...in exchange for ad space... But, they are a little higher than some others on the Reseller side...at $19.95 base and no Tech Support - that's a downside.
The OLM/WebAxxs packages really kick ass...and at WebAxxs with the Reseller plan at $10. setup and $8 a month on 350Mb it's probably going to be my main supply. Plus they have that god-awful-looking "Free Website Builder" program (which I need to offer "Community" building options to my non-profit orgs and clubs) and what looks like a good PlusMail Manager with a 500 user setup. Thanks to John and his forum on Topica...and to JT at WebAxxs...they are offering a good service with the message board for users.
I'm still holding an account at CIHost and if you don't "need" Tech Support, you never miss them. After all, they are part of the old OLM family...so the packages are almost identical. CIhost is higher priced though...and even though they look like a better Reseller Customer Support setup, only time will tell if they actually do. Frankly, since the crash in Dec, they doubled my space...I get 1000Mb and 100 POP and all the other CIHost goodies for $17.95...so, I'll probably keep the space and redirect into it from another site that needs a large forum storage space or partner it out or something.
Almost all the other sources I've checked out thouroughly have very common detractors.
They are asking to much for space at the Reseller level (over $17.95 for 350Mb+) and I can't markup that kind of charge in todays' marketplace.
Or they don't offer any Tech Support or Billing Support or Anonymous Support...and for a smalltime reseller, the Back Office costs are the real killer in the business.
Or they don't offer but ONE PLAN for resellers to use instead of the many options they offer on the retail side....ie: the "average" website never uses more than about 10-20Mb anyway, so why is everybody insisting on selling 250, 350, 500? My largest site has over 70 pages, 120 gifs and jpegs, a dozen applets, and other goodies and doesn't cross the 10Mb mark. Geez, you gotta' be C/Net or WebMonkey or a major WebCrossing forum or a huge Catalog site to use 500Mb!!
That's my progress report. Any comments or links would be cool. Thanks for taking the time to read and I hope this sparks an idea or two for ya' to use on your adventure. Have a great day.....Bobby
Bobby Beamer
Spring, Texas
"Life is hard, but it's harder when you're stupid."
Anonymous posted this at 01:52 — 13th February 2000.
They have: 5,633 posts
Joined: Jan 1970
Marketing my friend. You are absolutely correct. About 90% of the sites we host use no more space than our first plan offers (25 MB). So why do other companies advertise 500 MB for the same price? Because they know that most won't use 1/20 of that. And when someone that is new to this stuff comes along comparing a host offering 25 MB and a host offering 500 MB , guess who they are going to choose. It is called "overselling" and they are gambling that no more than one or two sites will actually use that much space.
The 10% of sites that we do host that use a lot of space are exactly what you described. Large catalogs, portals, etc.
Just thought I would add my $.02 on the subject
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Jaiem posted this at 14:00 — 14th February 2000.
They have: 1,191 posts
Joined: Apr 1999
I agree. When we first signed up we took an intermediate package because we didn't know how much disk space we needed. Later, we downgraded to lower costs. Even if our site doubled from it's present size we still wouldn't use up all our space.
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